How To Break a 10-Bolt

[Naaman]

In some instances, the aftermarket parts are going to be heavier than the stock parts simply because they are built with heavier steel and/or are boxed or tubular construction. The exceptions would be the K-member, front bumper support and possibly the lower front control arms. The aftermarket LCA's, panhard bar and torque arm will all be heavier.

Good point. What I meant was after market vs after market. Concerning reducing weight, I was also looking at a comparison of what the previous owner put on my car (mostly, the replica wheels, LCAs).

[Firebirdjones]

Naaman, have you scaled your car? These things aren't really what I consider very light. Especially considering most of the car is plastic and the sheetmetal that is on the car is pretty flimsy. You'd think with an aluminum engine and plastic parts it would be a featherweight. But it's not.

My T-top 4th gen is just over 3600 lbs. and that was when it still had the 10 bolt in it, stock wheels, stock everything.
My convertible 4th gen is only 60 lbs. heavier than my T-top, both on the same scale. Really not much difference in the two. and the convertible had a heavier automatic trans in it.

Considering all the bells and whistles these cars have on them, they aren't extremely heavy, but they aren't featherweights either.

What's funny is that my old 97 LT1 convertible was lighter than both of my aluminum block LS1 4th gens, it weighed 3560.

My 88 Iroc was a solid roof car, L98, it scaled at 3440. So the 3rd gens, as I would expect them to be, are a tad lighter, of course it's a slightly smaller car with less garbage on it.

You really have to get creative with a 4th gen to get it down to a "real" fighting weight without loosing all the amenities it has. What I always got a chuckle out of were people complaining about the weight of the new 5th gen when it came out. 3900 lbs. is what I kept hearing. Is that all?? But no one ever cared enough to actually scale it and see exactly what they had. In any event, hell that's only a couple hundred lbs. heavier than any 4th gen LS1 I've had on the scale. whoopty doooo. lol

[Whamhammer]

Naaman, have you scaled your car? These things aren't really what I consider very light. Especially considering most of the car is plastic and the sheetmetal that is on the car is pretty flimsy. You'd think with an aluminum engine and plastic parts it would be a featherweight. But it's not.

My T-top 4th gen is just over 3600 lbs. and that was when it still had the 10 bolt in it, stock wheels, stock everything.
My convertible 4th gen is only 60 lbs. heavier than my T-top, both on the same scale. Really not much difference in the two. and the convertible had a heavier automatic trans in it.

Considering all the bells and whistles these cars have on them, they aren't extremely heavy, but they aren't featherweights either.

What's funny is that my old 97 LT1 convertible was lighter than both of my aluminum block LS1 4th gens, it weighed 3560.

My 88 Iroc was a solid roof car, L98, it scaled at 3440. So the 3rd gens, as I would expect them to be, are a tad lighter, of course it's a slightly smaller car with less garbage on it.

You really have to get creative with a 4th gen to get it down to a "real" fighting weight without loosing all the amenities it has. What I always got a chuckle out of were people complaining about the weight of the new 5th gen when it came out. 3900 lbs. is what I kept hearing. Is that all?? But no one ever cared enough to actually scale it and see exactly what they had. In any event, hell that's only a couple hundred lbs. heavier than any 4th gen LS1 I've had on the scale. whoopty doooo. lol

Lets build on this, and lets put both an LS1 4th gen and a 5th gen 1SS on a scale. I'll bet that the advertised weights of both are low. I have a feeling that the 5th will be closer to 4100-4150lbs when Fluids, gas etc are accounted for and the differences in weight will still show the 5th gen to be significantly heavier.

[Firebirdjones]

I've heard a lot of numbers thrown around but until I see one on the scale I won't really know for sure.

Been the same way with these 4th gens. People talk like they are light but in reality, from my own personal experience, the 4 that I've owned weren't anywhere near as light as the hearsay that's posted all over the internet.

That's probably speaking for the majority of 4th gens as well (that are still stock), as most were optioned the same with all power accessories etc... Only a scarce few can say they have one of the stripped down models and that's not really indicative of the grand scheme.

[Whamhammer]

I've heard a lot of numbers thrown around but until I see one on the scale I won't really know for sure.

Been the same way with these 4th gens. People talk like they are light but in reality, from my own personal experience, the 4 that I've owned weren't anywhere near as light as the hearsay that's posted all over the internet.

That's probably speaking for the majority of 4th gens as well (that are still stock), as most were optioned the same with all power accessories etc... Only a scarce few can say they have one of the stripped down models and that's not really indicative of the grand scheme.

I will agree with you about TA's being "loaded", because they foced Ttops and all the power options, but I am surprised to hear a 3600 pound bone stock , 6 speed, coupe. Low 3500's sure. Did you have stuff in the trunk? Maybe the scales were a bit off?

[Firebirdjones]

I've never seen a stock 4th gen with everything that comes from the factory weigh anything close to low 3500's. That's 3rd gen territory. I've never even had a 4th gen scale under 3600....EVER.

Nothing in mine but what comes from the factory, spare tire and jack etc...3640 with a 1/2 tank of gas.

NHRA scale that I'm positive is accurate as they are calibrated per the NHRA. It's a pretty common weight I've seen with several 4th gens with the typical options (windows/seat/locks/AC/steering/air bags etc...) Mine even has cloth interior which is lighter, it's still no feather weight. If you are going to see these things dip under 3600, you'll probably be looking at one that basically has nothing but crank windows, and is pretty stripped down, or has some weight reduction like an aftermarket K-member and the like. A bare bones model with no options really doesn't have merit here because that's not how 95% of them were built.

I generally race with a full tank, plus I'm 200 lbs. My 4th gen is nearly every bit of 3900 lbs. going down track. I've scaled a hand full of them, they just aren't as light as people think they are.

[Whamhammer]

I've never seen a stock 4th gen with everything that comes from the factory weigh anything close to low 3500's. That's 3rd gen territory. I've never even had a 4th gen scale under 3600....EVER.

Nothing in mine but what comes from the factory, spare tire and jack etc...3640 with a 1/2 tank of gas.

NHRA scale that I'm positive is accurate as they are calibrated per the NHRA. It's a pretty common weight I've seen with several 4th gens with the typical options (windows/seat/locks/AC/steering/air bags etc...) Mine even has cloth interior which is lighter, it's still no feather weight. If you are going to see these things dip under 3600, you'll probably be looking at one that basically has nothing but crank windows, and is pretty stripped down, or has some weight reduction like an aftermarket K-member and the like. A bare bones model with no options really doesn't have merit here because that's not how 95% of them were built.

I generally race with a full tank, plus I'm 200 lbs. My 4th gen is nearly every bit of 3900 lbs. going down track. I've scaled a hand full of them, they just aren't as light as people think they are.

I guess the big question is this, how is GM determining the weight of thier cars for advertising purposes. The top of the weight range they advertised for the 2002 line was 3,627 pounds, which I would figure would be an automatic ecquipped convertible WS6 with all of the bells and whistles. Are they doing that weight totally dry? If I remember right, you said your 'vert was 60 pounds heavier than your other car, and I am sure that a 4L60E adds a bit of weight too.

My main train of thought is to get a grip on what to take away from the manufacturers statements about weight. If a 6M WS6 coupe weighs more than 100 lbs more than advertised, how much more does the 5th gen weighs over its advertised weight, and the same thing with the upcomming 6th gen? What about comparison between Fords weight advertisements vs GM and Dodge? Is it a matter of apples to oranges metrics style?

If a 6th gen Camaro can keep an apples to apples weight within 100 pounds of a 4th gen, then the 4th gens really will have a bear of a time keeping up with the Joneses. It'd just be nice to know if we need a correction factor when learning about all of these cars.

[Firebirdjones]

I know what you are trying to say. Usually those shipper weights are dry, that's how they did it back in the day that I can remember. Now?? I don't know.

All I can really suggest is that more people need to get out to the scales and see exactly what they have.


Yes my 02 SS vert was only 60 lbs. heavier than my 00 SS T-top.

The kicker was the vert had an auto, my T-top car is a 6 speed. I know the autos are slightly heavier. My vert also had leather, my T-top is cloth, again leather is heavier.
So the interesting question is......Is there really that much difference between a vert and T-top 4th gen if they are equipped the same???

In my case....considering only 2 differences that actually made my vert heavier, it only came in 60 lbs. heavier. How much closer would the vert have been with a 6-speed and cloth interior? I'd say 30 pounds less wouldn't be unreasonable.

This is the kind of stuff I find interesting. Everyone used to say "oh the verts are heavy, they will be slower" Well from my experience, that simply wasn't the case.
We have to remember that yes, the verts had a little more frame structure underneath, but that cloth top with a tiny back window wasn't that heavy. And also consider that the rear glass and hatch in a T-top or solid roof car is pretty damn heavy by itself. That is a very big piece of glass back there. When you break it down I start to see why there just wasn't much weight difference between the two.

[Naaman]

Naaman, have you scaled your car? These things aren't really what I consider very light. Especially considering most of the car is plastic and the sheetmetal that is on the car is pretty flimsy. You'd think with an aluminum engine and plastic parts it would be a featherweight. But it's not.

My T-top 4th gen is just over 3600 lbs. and that was when it still had the 10 bolt in it, stock wheels, stock everything.
My convertible 4th gen is only 60 lbs. heavier than my T-top, both on the same scale. Really not much difference in the two. and the convertible had a heavier automatic trans in it.

Considering all the bells and whistles these cars have on them, they aren't extremely heavy, but they aren't featherweights either.

What's funny is that my old 97 LT1 convertible was lighter than both of my aluminum block LS1 4th gens, it weighed 3560.

My 88 Iroc was a solid roof car, L98, it scaled at 3440. So the 3rd gens, as I would expect them to be, are a tad lighter, of course it's a slightly smaller car with less garbage on it.

You really have to get creative with a 4th gen to get it down to a "real" fighting weight without loosing all the amenities it has. What I always got a chuckle out of were people complaining about the weight of the new 5th gen when it came out. 3900 lbs. is what I kept hearing. Is that all?? But no one ever cared enough to actually scale it and see exactly what they had. In any event, hell that's only a couple hundred lbs. heavier than any 4th gen LS1 I've had on the scale. whoopty doooo. lol

I've only seen numbers for my car's weight once. It was when I took it to get it smogged. It had whatever I usually keep in the trunk, plus whatever personal effects in the glove box, console, back seat, etc. With a chubby gal in the driver seat (the smog tester, I'd estimate she'd easily have been over 150 lbs, possible skimming the 200-lbs range based on her height), it weighed in the mid 3700 range (3740-ish to be as exact as I think I remember). I was around 200 lbs back then. It's an M6 vert.

I took it to the scales at a truck stop, but I don't remember at all what the weight was that time.

Whenever I get my wheels and tires, I'll drive up there and buy you lunch and we can weigh my car. Sound good?

In any case, I'm less concerned about the actual weight of the car and more concerned with keeping things as light as they can be within reason. Right now, while I have other financial goals, "within reason" means something different than it will next year when I (hopefully) will be in a much more flexible financial state.

[Naaman]

I know what you are trying to say. Usually those shipper weights are dry, that's how they did it back in the day that I can remember. Now?? I don't know.

All I can really suggest is that more people need to get out to the scales and see exactly what they have.


Yes my 02 SS vert was only 60 lbs. heavier than my 00 SS T-top.

The kicker was the vert had an auto, my T-top car is a 6 speed. I know the autos are slightly heavier. My vert also had leather, my T-top is cloth, again leather is heavier.
So the interesting question is......Is there really that much difference between a vert and T-top 4th gen if they are equipped the same???

In my case....considering only 2 differences that actually made my vert heavier, it only came in 60 lbs. heavier. How much closer would the vert have been with a 6-speed and cloth interior? I'd say 30 pounds less wouldn't be unreasonable.

This is the kind of stuff I find interesting. Everyone used to say "oh the verts are heavy, they will be slower" Well from my experience, that simply wasn't the case.
We have to remember that yes, the verts had a little more frame structure underneath, but that cloth top with a tiny back window wasn't that heavy. And also consider that the rear glass and hatch in a T-top or solid roof car is pretty damn heavy by itself. That is a very big piece of glass back there. When you break it down I start to see why there just wasn't much weight difference between the two.

Prior to my heads/cam, I walked a 2013 Challenger R/T (375 hp plus some factory upgrades... intake exhaust) from a 55mph roll. I'd estimate that my car was making 325 at the crank, if we can assume that Lid/TB/Cat-Back do anything for real world performance. If they do, then we could be looking at as much as a 60-HP difference. His was an auto, FWIW.

I assume that the majority of the difference came from my gear selection (I selected 4th gear, so hardly optimum), while he had to wait for the kick-down (not sure why he didn't manually select--over confidence, maybe). With the same configuration, I've also been able to keep up with an LS2/M6 Vette up to about 105, which is where I backed off... could be the driver mod in this case.

[Whamhammer]

I know what you are trying to say. Usually those shipper weights are dry, that's how they did it back in the day that I can remember. Now?? I don't know.

All I can really suggest is that more people need to get out to the scales and see exactly what they have.


Yes my 02 SS vert was only 60 lbs. heavier than my 00 SS T-top.

The kicker was the vert had an auto, my T-top car is a 6 speed. I know the autos are slightly heavier. My vert also had leather, my T-top is cloth, again leather is heavier.
So the interesting question is......Is there really that much difference between a vert and T-top 4th gen if they are equipped the same???

In my case....considering only 2 differences that actually made my vert heavier, it only came in 60 lbs. heavier. How much closer would the vert have been with a 6-speed and cloth interior? I'd say 30 pounds less wouldn't be unreasonable.

This is the kind of stuff I find interesting. Everyone used to say "oh the verts are heavy, they will be slower" Well from my experience, that simply wasn't the case.
We have to remember that yes, the verts had a little more frame structure underneath, but that cloth top with a tiny back window wasn't that heavy. And also consider that the rear glass and hatch in a T-top or solid roof car is pretty damn heavy by itself. That is a very big piece of glass back there. When you break it down I start to see why there just wasn't much weight difference between the two.

Are there shops that actual will "scale" a car? I just dont see it making sense for me to buy the scale myself.

[pajeff02]

Here is our car from a few years back: http://www.ls1.com/forums/f36/scales-123963/

I think that most truck stops and drag strips have a set of scales.

[Whamhammer]

Here is our car from a few years back: http://www.ls1.com/forums/f36/scales-123963/

I think that most truck stops and drag strips have a set of scales.

Your scaling made sense, if GM advertises a dry tank:

3,565 lbs measured
- 100 lbs fuel (12.5 gals * 8 lbs per gallon)
=3,465 lbs

[raynor139]

Currently gm does its weights fully loaded with all fluids.

[35th-ANV-SS]

Here is our car from a few years back: http://www.ls1.com/forums/f36/scales-123963/

I think that most truck stops and drag strips have a set of scales.

Your scaling made sense, if GM advertises a dry tank:

3,565 lbs measured
- 100 lbs fuel (12.5 gals * 8 lbs per gallon)
=3,465 lbs

Gasoline is actually only a little over 6lbs per gallon. Water on the other hand is roughly 8lbs per gallon.

[Whamhammer]

Gasoline is actually only a little over 6lbs per gallon. Water on the other hand is roughly 8lbs per gallon.

Thanks for correcting me, I was shooting from the hip and knew one was eight and the other was six, and figured that fat floats

So adds 25 lbs to what I said.

[Whamhammer]

Currently gm does its weights fully loaded with all fluids.

I am curious as to when "Currently" started.

[Whamhammer]

Here's another thing to think about, Honda Civics are being listed at 3,000 lbs now.

[Firebirdjones]

Are there shops that actual will "scale" a car? I just dont see it making sense for me to buy the scale myself.

Sorry for the late reply. I don't always get the email alerts so sometimes these threads get lost for me.

There are several places that do it, all are calibrated accurately due to regulations these places abide by.

A large feed store that sells in bulk almost always has a scale, I've used these before. Your local steel and aluminum scrap yards have them, I've been on those as well. Even our local "You-Pick-It" junk yard has a scale so they can scale the scrap cars you bring in on a trailer.
I usually pull into these places real early in the morning and offer the guy $20 so he can buy lunch, they let me on. Takes 10 seconds.

Of course I always use the scales at the dragstrip anytime I'm there too, it's free, and all you guys visit the dragstrip......right?? Usually the scales are at or near the ticket booth where you pick up your slip after a pass.

[Naaman]

Currently gm does its weights fully loaded with all fluids.

By "fully loaded" we're talking all options?