Breaker panel question.

[allbaugh_04]

So picture my use of electronics in the basement.

All connected to a 15amp breaker.

2 receivers (7 speakers), 1,000 watt subwoofer, computer, monitor, projector. This breaker is also responsible for the lights in that room, lights/outlets in the laundry room. Right now I'd say it's getting closed to maxed out.

So how am I going to add a 1,500 watt fireplace heater. Not possible...

Am I going to have to rewire the basement or what, what's the best option here?

[Adam_94_T/A]

Add more breakers...... If it were me i would run my lights on a seperate circuit and my recepticals on another. Im suprised you havent been getting nuisance trips on that 15 amp breaker.

[wileyCoyote]

well, ..calculate your "load"..

so 1000W device (this is probably a "max", ..i.e. you'll probably operate well below this if you want to stay friendly w/ your neighbors ), .. assuming P=VI power (watts) = voltage (volts) x current (amps)
~ 8.5A

general lighting? go around and look at the power (wattage) of all light bulbs on this circuit.. add these up to get your wattage for general lighting, ..divide by 120 V to get estimate on current (amps)..
??

1500 w heater
~ 12.5 amps,

..so the heater would probably put you over your rated 15 amp circuit...

i'd consider seeing if there is another circuit availabe to plug the heater in to, ...or see if you can go w/ a more efficient or lower power heater..? it might work, if you run the heater w/ out running the stereo hard and w/out all the lights on.. ?

[allbaugh_04]

Add more breakers...... If it were me i would run my lights on a seperate circuit and my recepticals on another. Im suprised you havent been getting nuisance trips on that 15 amp breaker.

That's because I haven't done it yet, it's a future estimate. I'll have to pull the panel off and see if there is room, doubt it.

well, ..calculate your "load"..

so 1000W device (this is probably a "max", ..i.e. you'll probably operate well below this if you want to stay friendly w/ your neighbors ), .. assuming P=VI power (watts) = voltage (volts) x current (amps)
~ 8.5A

general lighting? go around and look at the power (wattage) of all light bulbs on this circuit.. add these up to get your wattage for general lighting, ..divide by 120 V to get estimate on current (amps)..
??

1500 w heater
~ 12.5 amps,

..so the heater would probably put you over your rated 15 amp circuit...

i'd consider seeing if there is another circuit availabe to plug the heater in to, ...or see if you can go w/ a more efficient or lower power heater..? it might work, if you run the heater w/ out running the stereo hard and w/out all the lights on.. ?

I was doing a few calculations myself, but when i saw the heater is pulling 12.5 amps at full power and 6.25 at half. I knew there might be issues.

I also was thinking of running the plugs on a separate breaker and that'd help, but probably still be pushing it imo.

[wileyCoyote]

That's because I haven't done it yet, it's a future estimate. I'll have to pull the panel off and see if there is room, doubt it.



I was doing a few calculations myself, but when i saw the heater is pulling 12.5 amps at full power and 6.25 at half. I knew there might be issues.

I also was thinking of running the plugs on a separate breaker and that'd help, but probably still be pushing it imo.

i think the NEC says to keep your anticipated loads at 80% or less than what the circuit's rated for (15A), ... might want someone to check me on that figure, though.. is this heater a portable heater or a more permanent appliance?

[allbaugh_04]

i think the NEC says to keep your anticipated loads at 80% or less than what the circuit's rated for (15A), ... might want someone to check me on that figure, though.. is this heater a portable heater or a more permanent appliance?

Portable. I opened up the panel and saw it was mislabeled in one area. One plug in the laundry room is for th washer and sump pump. Directly behind the wall where this outlet is...is where I would put a permanent heater. I could run a wire from washer outlet through the wall to existing outlet. Tie off the old wiring.

[wileyCoyote]

Portable. I opened up the panel and saw it was mislabeled in one area. One plug in the laundry room is for th washer and sump pump. Directly behind the wall where this outlet is...is where I would put a permanent heater. I could run a wire from washer outlet through the wall to existing outlet. Tie off the old wiring.

allbaugh, ...i think code, NEC, requires a separate, dedicated circuits for the washer and for the dryer, respectively.. now, the washer is probably on a 20A circuit, but i don't think it would be a good idea to tap into power from the washer outlet to add an outlet, ...probably against code too...

[LSX01MUSTANG]

Wiley is right,it is 80%. You could always run a new circuit for your heater or whatever you choose to use it for. Just make sure to use the proper sized wire for the amp load.

[allbaugh_04]

There isn't any room in the panel for another breaker. Not sure what else I can do. Besides posibly being against code why would you say its a bad idea?

[wileyCoyote]

There isn't any room in the panel for another breaker. Not sure what else I can do. Besides posibly being against code why would you say its a bad idea?

i wouldn't go against the code, first, always think safety, you always want some "leeway" in designs like this (electrical power), and keep in mind it could come back to bite you in other ways, say, if you ever try to sell your house, ..the home inspector could find out you have a circuit not up to code..

you might be able to use your heater plugged into the outlet on your general lighting (or whatever the circuit you originally asked about).. if it turn's out to be too much w/ other stuff running (flips breaker), ..then consider getting a smaller, more efficient heater maybe??.. if you decide to add or upgrade your service panel (breakers), then you should probably hire a licensed electrition to get it done right... just my 0.02

[LSX01MUSTANG]

Depending on what type of panel you have, you can get "cheeter breakers". They are the size of a single breaker but have 2 single pole breakers in them. Yes they are kind of frowned upon because you could over draw your main breaker by loading up the panel with them. Just a thought if you just need 1 more circuit.



EDIT: Just read Wiley's post^^^^^, and he is absolutely correct about code and having it come back to haunt you.

[allbaugh_04]

Well I will find out if its against code. I understand it from a selling point. But I definitely don't see a problem doing it.

I do have 2 sets of those double 15 amp breakers. Not sure how many are allowed in one panel. But it passed inspction.

[Blakbird24]

"Twins" are not against code, nor are they really frowned upon. The one situation that is taboo to electricians however is twins in a BRAND NEW PANEL. No excuse for that. But otherwise, the same rules apply here as for standard breakers. Also, you are not required to keep your total sum of breaker amperage below your main breaker amperage...it's much more complicated than that.

OP - one thing that may save you and make life VERY easy...can you identify the wire gauge attached to the breaker in question? IF it's feeding receptacles, and your house was built after 1980, it SHOULD be 12AWG NMB (Romex). It could also be 14AWG, but that's not what you want. You want 12AWG, because then you can simply upsize your breaker to 20A, and install 20A receptacles on that circuit...then you are good for 1760W on that circuit (20A * 110V * 80% = 1760W). That would improve things on that circuit. Regardless, you are going to need a dedicated 20A circuit to safely feed a 1500W heater, and I highly recommend an AFCI breaker also.

[allbaugh_04]

Excellent point. I personally don't work with wiring enough to know the gauge by looking at it. The house was built in 1984. Was 12 gauge required by code after 1980?

[Blakbird24]

Excellent point. I personally don't work with wiring enough to know the gauge by looking at it. The house was built in 1984. Was 12 gauge required by code after 1980?

For receptacle circuits, yes. But that doesn't mean that the code was followed...also the circuit you are speaking of could have been added later or changed, and if no inspection was required, they could have used 14AWG with no issues. So it's important that you verify the wire gauge.

[wileyCoyote]

i think 14ga. is w/in code for a 15A circuit.. in fact that's what i had feeding GFCI receptacles in my garage and some exterior outlets, on 15A service.. (built after 1980).. 12 ga. is required for 20A.

you can verify the wire gauge if you can see where it's stamped on the wire insulation itself (if you lucky, you power down your outlet, remove cover, remove receptacle, and you might be able to see this on the wires that were screwed to the receptacle (the white sheathing should have been trimmed back to where the cable enters the receptacle enclosure/box.. other than that, pick up a guage tool, or one ot those cheap plastic gauge/measurement templates (sorry, don't know what these are called), and this will give you a positive determination..

[KMdef9]

Excellent points by Wiley and Blakbird. I got a few to add.

Be careful! Eletrical work is the most dangerous work a homeowner can do. This gets amplified because alot of homewoners will do hack jobs and you'll never know what you come across. You can buy a cheap tic tracer (wireless voltage dector) for <$10 at hardware stores. They determine if voltage is present, they don't necessarily determine if there is no voltage, hope that makes sense. Also, keep in mind it takes <0.20A to stop your heart, that's less draw than a single light bulb. So don't listen to idiots who say "It's only 120V, it doesn't hurt that bad" or "I've been hit by 480V, now that hurts". Doesn't matter if it's 120V or 480V, volts don't kill you, amperage does. Another misconception I've heard is that the white (neutral) wire isn't dangerous, this can be extremely false. If the circuit is under load, and you complete the circuit through that white wire using yourself, expect 100x the pain. That's assuming everythings wired properly and it's not doglegged circuit (used in switching circuits). Never touch exposed wires with both hands, don't touch any other metal while working, assume any wire is dangerous, take your time and always try to have the circuit off.

I fully agree with the selling the house points, you need to get into contact with your city/township/village AHJ (authority who has jurisdiction) to know what code is. Local code superseeds national code. I've had inspectors flat out contridict the NEC and fail me. It's all about what they want.

Like Wiley was saying, dedicated circuits need to be left alone. Washer/dryer, sump pump, furance, bathroom GFCI's, garbage disposal, kitchen counter top plugs, microwave, refridgerator, bathroom ceiling heaters, outdoor pools/hottubs, and even smoke dectors/ acr fault circuits (AFCI's) should all be on their own circuit. Once again, all depends on your AHJ. That said, don't tap any other circuits.

Be very weary about what previous home owners have done, I think eletrical issues are the most hacked.

As pointed out, the new heater should be on it's own 20A, 12 AWG wired, circuit. We would use 75% load capacity, as motor based devices might have a working load of 1200W, but can spike to 1400W on start up. 12 AWG is NOT required for anything that is a 15A circuit. Load determines amperage, amperage determine wire size, not the other way around. So, you can put a 15A on 12AWG, but can't put a 20A on 14AWG. If your having trouble determing the sizes, buy a set of wire strippers, as they'll come in handy for this project anyways. Try strip back alittle of the wire using the 14AWG notches, and if you can't, then you have 12 AWG. Typically, white insulated wire (romex) is 14AWG and yellow is 12AWG, in the 1980's and part of the 90's, they did make white romex that's 12AWG.

A double tap breaker is probably the easiest for someone with limted expereince. But, do you know excatly what ever breaker controls in your house? For example, you might have a random plug that has a dedicated circuit to it that you don't need it to be anymore. If you find something like this, and you don't want to use a double breaker, and can add this plug (as long as it matches wire size and doesnt have a high load) to another circuit right in the panel. You can pull wire from the breaker, splice it with the other circuit and run 1 new wire to 1 breaker. I had 2 dedicated circuits on my kitchen counter top (previous home owner used a counter microwave, I have an over the stove) for 2 plugs, so I pulled both of the wires from the breakers that controlled the counter top plugs, spilced them together with a 3rd wire (which matched AWG) and ran the 3rd new wire to the breaker. Now the counter top plugs are all on 1 breaker and I freed up a spot within my panel. This is alittle risky for someone with limited expereince.

I also ran a dedicated circuit for my home entertainment and other TV's. You don't want to have any audio/video device on the same circuit as a device that has a large motor, ie ceiling fans, heaters, refridgerators. The motors can back feed signals and can cause noise to your audio/video devices. This is because I am extremely picky. So I would run a new circuit for that as well.

[allbaugh_04]

Yea I have heard of feedback issuses like that so its probably a good idea.

Thanks for the ideas.

Oh and I knew about the small amperage that can kill. Friend got hit with 20,000 volts in the neck and lived. Long recovery though.