Help - Trick Flow LS1 Top End Kit Dyno Reults

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 08:46 AM

According to the tuner and a a little internet reading for what that is worth the DynaPacks are supposed to be conservative.

Going to find out in a few weeks, found a local place that will do a few pulls on a Dyno Jet for $75. I hear these run a little on the high side but between the two it should give me a good idea. Thanks again.

**BADASS2000SS** · 07-27-2010, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro

Hello - this is my first forum so give the older guy a break.

I installed the Trick Flow LS1 top end kit on a very low mile 98 SS Camaro M6 (19k miles). I got the kit that Trick Flow claims is 485 crank HPs and have the following supporting mods:
- Long tube headers - Loudmouth II Exhaust - SLP Flow pack (lid and air scoop) - high flow cats - TB coolant bypass - 85mm throttle body - LS6 intake - blueprinted oil pump - EGR tube cut as to not block intake - 160 thermostat - LS2 timing chain - converted to the "truck coils" - 42lb injectors
- brand new NGK TR55's gaped at .50 put in right before the tune - Thundervolt 50 wires - new valley cover to replace valve cover PCV

So about all the supporting mods are on the car, not a whole lot more to offer right? Install was perfect, no problems. The car runs well, no issues.

I just had it tuned at East Coast Supercharging in NJ this past Friday. Full street tune followed by a dyno tune performed on a DynaPack 4000.

Not excited about the results, 383 RWHP and 376 ftlbs

Now give it the temp was in the high 90's and it was dry out but still this seems really low. I'm worried something is wrong with the car but the guys at East Coast say it is fine, and with such low easy miles on it I can't imagine if the install was good what else the problem could be. I would think with the mods and the 485 kit I should be getting at least 485 flywheel HP, subtract about 15% for drive train = somewhere in the 405 - 415 rwhp range. I seem to be at least 20 - 25 hp off.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or experiences with this kit would be greatly appreciated. I'm going mad worrying that something just isn't right with my beloved car.

Something does not seem right to me either. Your numbers should be higher.

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 09:09 AM

A few guys suggested that my 85mm TB and LS6 intake are restricting, if I went to a FAST 102 with 102mm TB it would get me in the 410 RWHP range which is about what I would expect if the TF kit puts out what they claim.

This was also done the the worst day you could dyno a car, very hot (almost 100 degrees) and dry.

**rc74racer** · 07-27-2010, 09:21 AM

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in dyno numbers. I'm sure the TF numbers are under ideal conditions plus a different dyno. The bottom line since this is not a track car is are you are happy with the upgrade in torque and the way it drives for the $$$ that you spent? It sounds to me like you are and if that's the case why plunk down another 1k on a new TB and intake just to hit some numbers?

**shady milkman** · 07-27-2010, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by rc74racer

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in dyno numbers. I'm sure the TF numbers are under ideal conditions plus a different dyno. The bottom line since this is not a track car is are you are happy with the upgrade in torque and the way it drives for the $$$ that you spent? It sounds to me like you are and if that's the case why plunk down another 1k on a new TB and intake just to hit some numbers?

because i bet there is at least 20+ of a gain there from that swap...that is a huge gain for the price. it seems a shame to know a good chunk of power is left on the table after buying that pricey top end.

**onyx_rock** · 07-27-2010, 09:51 AM

I personally wouldnt worry about the intake and TB before I put a bigger cam in there. If the car runs strong enjoy it for awhile and do some research for future mods. It can get expensive chasing HP numbers.

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 09:59 AM

I hear you, bet if I spent the $350 or so for the bigger cam it would gain at least 20 hp also for a lot less money, at least I think anyway.
$350 Cam + various gaskets and parts $50 + tune $549 = $949
$1000 for Fast setup + tune $549 = $1549

I think for now if I know the car is ok I will drive as is until I think I need more which may be never. The car is 12 years old and I have 19k miles on it so not driven much.

Guess I would ask this, based on those numbers does anyone see where I may have a potential problem? Everything else is fine, no ticking, rapping, banging, no knock sensor retard, plugs look good so far, idles smooth, runs good. . . .

**onyx_rock** · 07-27-2010, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro

I hear you, bet if I spent the $350 or so for the bigger cam it would gain at least 20 hp also for a lot less money, at least I think anyway.
$350 Cam + various gaskets and parts $50 + tune $549 = $949
$1000 for Fast setup + tune $549 = $1549

I think for now if I know the car is ok I will drive as is until I think I need more which may be never. The car is 12 years old and I have 19k miles on it so not driven much.

Guess I would ask this, based on those numbers does anyone see where I may have a potential problem? Everything else is fine, no ticking, rapping, banging, no knock sensor retard, plugs look good so far, idles smooth, runs good. . . .

wait to do cam and intake at once so you dont pay for a tune twice.

**shady milkman** · 07-27-2010, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro

I hear you, bet if I spent the $350 or so for the bigger cam it would gain at least 20 hp also for a lot less money, at least I think anyway.
$350 Cam + various gaskets and parts $50 + tune $549 = $949
$1000 for Fast setup + tune $549 = $1549

not quite. your ls6 intake is a restriction right now with your cam...so you cant continue to throw a bigger cam in your car and expect good gains..you will just choke out your new bigger cam even more. no one here will question the fact that your tb/ls6 is the bottleneck in your system as is. you add a larger cam and you will not gain much...if you go bigger you will need to go to a fast setup period

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 10:19 AM

Good point to do both the intake and cam at the same time to save on the tune!

I'm not doubting the intake is my restriction, confirmed with the shop that my intake vac was high in the upper RPMs which I guess indicates it was sucking hard. I was just tossing the cam out as a thought, I understand the right way is to remove restriction then go bigger if you like.

Think I am happy where i am as long as I think the car is ok.

If someday I think I need a bigger cam then I'll go with a FAST intake and TB along with it but I just don't think I'll miss the potential 20HP more than the $1550 it will cost me to get it at this point.

Any alternatives to a FAST setup that doesn't cost half as much as my heads or is FAST the end all be all of the LS intake world?

**Knight** · 07-27-2010, 10:49 AM

There are other manufacturers who make larger intakes and t/bs, but Fast makes a good product for the money - you can go custom but you pay a lot more - ask me how I know....

**shady milkman** · 07-27-2010, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro

Good point to do both the intake and cam at the same time to save on the tune!

I'm not doubting the intake is my restriction, confirmed with the shop that my intake vac was high in the upper RPMs which I guess indicates it was sucking hard. I was just tossing the cam out as a thought, I understand the right way is to remove restriction then go bigger if you like.

Think I am happy where i am as long as I think the car is ok.

If someday I think I need a bigger cam then I'll go with a FAST intake and TB along with it but I just don't think I'll miss the potential 20HP more than the $1550 it will cost me to get it at this point.

Any alternatives to a FAST setup that doesn't cost half as much as my heads or is FAST the end all be all of the LS intake world?

well enjoy your car and have fun..that is all that really matters

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 11:15 AM

Thanks everyone for your input, greatly appreciated. Good bunch of folks here glad I joined!

**shady milkman** · 07-27-2010, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro

Thanks everyone for your input, greatly appreciated. Good bunch of folks here glad I joined!

glad to have ya

**rc74racer** · 07-27-2010, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

because i bet there is at least 20+ of a gain there from that swap...that is a huge gain for the price. it seems a shame to know a good chunk of power is left on the table after buying that pricey top end.

20hp for another 1k in parts plus tune is not worth it IMO and I don't think it's out there either with that small cam. There is almost always something left on the table, using that logic after spending the 1k+ for the intake and TB why not throw a bigger cam in there and pick up a 100HP for another $500-$600 plus tune? If he's happy no need to worry about numbers at the end of the day dyno numbers are no good for anything but shit talking.

**rc74racer** · 07-27-2010, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro

Thanks everyone for your input, greatly appreciated. Good bunch of folks here glad I joined!

Great site there is a wealth of info on here. Congrats on your purchase those are great heads!

**Frost** · 07-27-2010, 12:53 PM

I bet it drives like a dream with that baby cam! I have had their packages come in at what the owners seem to think is a little soft before as well. Out of all of their packages, even the 'biggest' cam is relatively conservative.

How many CC's are the chambers on those heads? What head gasket (or better yet, what is the installed height of them)? With that baby cam, DCR should be high and it should be pretty torquey.

Let us know what your dynojet numbers are; I am relatively familiar with those

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 04:49 PM

Certainly will, scheduled for a dyno run next Friday, the 13th of all dates.

The heads are stock trick flow Gen X CNC version 215cc runners, 64 cc combustion chamber with LS6 triple metal head gaskets (not sure on their height) Spoke with the folks at trick flow several times, very friendly, they say this CC chamber and the LS6 gaskets provided in the kit should yield between 10.5 :1 to 10.55 : 1 compression on a stock LS1 bottom end without shaving the heads any. Tuner did mention based on the cam specs that there is a lot of dynamic or static (forget which or maybe they are the same) compression which they tell me helps torque.

The tuner seemed to like the car, drove it several times and seemed to get a kick out it. Couldn't get over how smooth it was but according to him when he punched it in 4th gear it would still lift the nose of the car. Said it didn't care what gear it was in, which I noticed doing like 45 mph in 6th gear at what seemed like just above idle with no bogging or bucking.

I will not argue it has nice torque and after having many older cars with large cams I'm just not into the choppy lope any more. Sounds good, makes a lot of top end power but you end up having to run steep gears, it's rough at idle rattling everything loose in the car, just looking for something a little more refined with decent punch. Even though the cam is small the heads are supposed to be great and really looking at it from stock I still saw a huge gain, like a totally different car. Guess in my mind kinda like a "sleeper" of sorts, looks like a clean low mile 4th gen SS but has a nice punch to it. I'll figure the whole picture thing out here eventually and post up some pics and the dynos (which seems to require mastering the scanner).

Not looking to talk trash esp over dyno numbers, just not into chatroom fighting or armchair racing or whatever they call it now. I could have built a dyno queen and knowingly did not.

I guess trying to use the dyno as a "tool" and this being my first partial build on anything newer than a gen 1 engine I took what Trick Flow rated at face value and things just didn't add up. As I have not even touched a gen 1 engine for at least 10 years and nothing fuel injected I thought something was done wrong on my part possibly causing the reduced output.

Ran cylinder leak down test on all cylinders, checked plugs many times and have the box of band aids to prove it, double and triple checked everything. I took my time, cleaned everything, replaced every part I took off with a new one (oil pump, water pump, timing chain, belts, hoses, gaskets. . . . ) used the proper tools, took about two months from start to end and it just seemed to not add up.

Guess I'm just a bit on edge and wanted to be assured my results were common so I don't go into heart failure worrying about this.

Thanks again to the many fine folks who patiently helped me out.

**sloroller** · 07-27-2010, 05:15 PM

Just wondering could the brand of dynos that you used maybe supply different rwhp numbers than which tfs used? Numbers look good though

**98SSCamaro** · 07-27-2010, 05:28 PM

No doubt about it. TF rates the kit at 485 HP at the crank not at the wheels. My dyno was done at the wheels on a Dyna Pack dyno. I was just doing a rough calculation, 485HP - 16% power train loss for an M6 is about 407 RWHP not even counting the other supporting mods so just seemed like I was missing the mark by 20+ HP thinking I did something wrong.

Going to run on a Dyno Jet dyno next week just to see what it says since a lot of guys are familiar with those. Not overly concerned with the Dyno numbers, again just thought that since I missed the mark by so much I did something wrong is all.