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What's this sound?

This is a discussion on What's this sound? within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I can't figure out what the ticking sound is. Has anybody heard this or had it happen to them? I've ...

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    Arctic White
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    What's this sound?

    I can't figure out what the ticking sound is. Has anybody heard this or had it happen to them? I've checked the spark plugs and wires. The car started doing it about 3 weeks ago and when I accelerate it gets louder. Once the engine would warm up, the ticking would go away, until 2 days ago and it hasn't stopped ticking since. I have a pretty bad loss of power and at around 45-50 mph it causes a misfire in cylinder 1. The codes it's throwing are: p1404(egr closed position), p0301(cylinder 1 misfire), p0128(coolant thermostat), p0405(exhaust gas recirculating sensor A circuit low). I replaced the EGR valve twice now and it still throws those same codes. I can only think that a lifter has failed.

    K&N Air Filter.....amazing, I know

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    Did it start off sounding like this what is in the video @ 0:20 post 7 of the thread bellow?

    Help!!!!

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    Arctic White
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    No, that constant ticking sound is what it's always been. When I hit the gas it gets louder and faster and it's quiter at idle. It's super sluggish off the line and seems to have a really hard time moving. You can hear the exhaust get deeper when I press hard on the gas, but the engine doesn't really respond.

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    Former Mopar Man 2002ssslp's Avatar
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    Pull the valve cover and check the rockers and push rods.
    My ride is a 2002 Camaro SS SLP #3296 with 30k, LTH, 3" Y, CME, Frost tune, K&N, ported TB, Blackwing lid, Bellows, MSD, Denso Iridium, and 85mm MAF, Bilsteins, Eibach springs, SLP strut brace, Adj. Panhard, TA Girdle, UMI, Pro 5.0, Nitto NT555
    My wife has a 2004 GTO with the rare SAP, 18" wheels, K&N Cold Air System, MSD, Ported TB, Frost tune, Denso Iridium, Flowmaster cat-back, 3200 Yank, 75k

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    I had a long post typed out and some how it didn't post so I'll try again......



    Are you mechanically incline? Can you or are you able to do this stuff? If no you need to take it to a shop. For what you need to do might mean pulling the engine and doing a rebuild (worse case scenario). Do not drive it, if going to a shop have it towed. What ever it is it sounds bad enough that you could have major damage inside.

    Don't panic yet with what I've wrote below......I'm just trying to cover a very wide range of possibilities of what it could be.

    Your Oil Pressure is of major concern - zero to very low OP means the oil pump either has died, oil passages are clogged (usually by metal) or the OPSU has broken. Oil starvation will cause bearings to go and other major damage. START with the OPSU first. It is located just behind the drivers side of the intake manifold. You can reach back there feel for any oil or if it is still there. Over time they get fragile and crack. You may have to pull the intake to look. If it is broken replace it, but the noise is something else entirely. Checking the OPSU is a required step in troubleshooting the problem. After you check the OPSU and get the intake back on you can move on to checking the other stuff.

    Start with getting a automotive stethoscope (cheap only around $10 at parts stores) and start probing around the engine. Start top side around the valve covers. Check front middle and back, listen for sounds like metal grinding, ticking, or slapping. It helps if you have another ls car to compare noises to.


    If you hear noise coming from:

    Cylinder Heads - could be bent/broken push rod, rocker, valve or bad lifter. To check you'll have to pull the cover off look for anything that is obvious like a loose rocker. Now you have 2 ways to check the valve train.

    1) get a socket that will fit the crank bolt and turn the crank by hand clock wise to turn the crank over 2 times. While it is turning look at each rocker and see if it's working properly. It helps to have a second person and do one side at a time. It will mean turning the crank more then 2 times. While doing this also listen for unusual sounds. A stuck valve or bent push rod will make noise as it's being force to move.

    2) After removing the valve covers get some cardboard and place it around the inside of the cylinder in such a way as to prevent oil form spraying all over the place. Next you'll have to figure a way to connect the coil packs in order to run the motor. Basically you're trying to look at the valve train without the covers to see if all is working properly. This way is messy.

    Mid engine - hardest spot to probe and locate noise from. Usually lifters, cracked piston and possible a pin that connects the piston to the rod.

    Bottom end - spun bearings, broken piston, connecting rod. If any of these the crank will need to be pulled and checked for damage. Which means the motor will need to be pulled for a rebuild.

    Front (Timing cover) - timing chain could be loose. Also oil pump could have died.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    I used the stethoscope and listened and it's coming from just above cylinder 1. It sounds like something is clanging almost against the valve cover. I'll need to pull them off when it's warmer and look to see. There's so many variables of what it could be. My oil pressure sits just above 30 psi(I'd call it 33 psi) at idle, then when I hit the gas it increases. For the first 100,000 miles, the car always sat above 60(call it 63 psi). The oil pump is what I thought it could be too. I should mention this is the 3800 v6, not the ls1.

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    Retired NOT tired SteveC's Avatar
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    I noticed in the video that you had some smoke coming up from the engine block, IT COULD BE an exhaust manifold gasket.

    SteveC

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LgndKller20073 View Post
    I used the stethoscope and listened and it's coming from just above cylinder 1. It sounds like something is clanging almost against the valve cover. I'll need to pull them off when it's warmer and look to see. There's so many variables of what it could be. My oil pressure sits just above 30 psi(I'd call it 33 psi) at idle, then when I hit the gas it increases. For the first 100,000 miles, the car always sat above 60(call it 63 psi). The oil pump is what I thought it could be too. I should mention this is the 3800 v6, not the ls1.


    Let me send a link to Smittro, he's our resident V6 expert.

    It shouldn't matter based on that sound. What I posted would still apply to the V6 or almost any engines that use push rods & lifters. Rotary engines are an entirely different creature all together.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    The smoke was from the egr valve gasket. I just replaced it along with the egr valve before I took the video. It was burning the excess sealant. I took it to a shop to get a diagnosis. They said it was a collapsed lifter. They're running a compression test as we speak to check for any internal damage. I hope it's just the lifter and nothing else. It'll still be a PITA to replace since I don't have a garage, but a lot less than if it was the oil pump or something along those lines.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    Arctic White
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    The shop says it is only a collapsed lifter. They want $1500 to replace all the lifters and pushrods. I think I'll have them do it. I don't really have any place to work on it and do it myself or I would take on the project.

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    wow $1500......that's theft!!! They don't want to do the work!!!


    The work to get to the lifters isn't that hard, time consuming = yes, but not hard to do. Time to do it - it can vary because of possible machine shop work and parts delivery

    This is what you'll have to do:

    Remove Power Steering Pump off drivers cylinder head (I used a pulley remover and removed the 3 bolts attached to the head, Do not disconnect the hoses)
    Remove all coils, plugs, wires, injector wire harness, disconnect fuel lines (wrap ends with a plastic bag to avoid fuel leaking and contamination in lines) disconnect coolant temp wire harness on the drivers head located just behind the power steering pump and in front of the #1 cylinder exhaust manifold (Be careful, this pull is easy to break and if you decide to remove coolant will leak out of head).
    Remove Intake ( I took the air lid, throttle body, & intake off as one unit, a little difficult but can be done with one other person)
    Remove coolant by pass (this is the thin metal tubing to attaches to both heads and is located above the valley cover tray, some coolant will flow out)
    Remove Exhaust manifold or Headers (You can let them hang, just beware that you will need to move them around to get to the head bolts)
    Remove Valve covers ( the bolts are attached to the cover so need to worry about losing them)
    Loosen rocker arms and remove push rods*. (This might be a good time to replace with Chrome Molly Stock Length push rods. They are just a few $$$ more and stronger then OEM)
    Remove head bolts ( there are across the top 10mm, internal (Between the rocker arms (15mm) you may have to remove a rocker, just put it back in the same place, and across the bottom of the head (15mm) (exhaust side of head)
    Lift the head and rotate towards the valley cover tray (be prepare for coolant to come out of the head, you can't avoid it it will go every where) this is so you can remove the wire grounds from the back of the head (15mm, drivers head has 2, passenger has 1)
    Remove the lifter trays (10mm)
    I used a magnetic probe to lift the lifters out, you may need some pliers to remove.


    * - If you choose to reuse the OEM push rods wipe the oil off and blow out the passage to make sure no clogs, next roll them on a flat piece of glass like a mirror. This will let you know if they are bent. If bent replace.



    Cost of Parts: (I'll have to pm you where I'm getting these from)

    LS7 Lifters - $130 (these are LS1 stock replacements)
    GM Head bolts (requires 2 sets) - $54 ($27 each)
    Head Gaskets (requires 2) - MLS = $38 (for a set, Better gasket but may require milling the heads for a level surface) or Graphite = $58 (for a set, was OEM for 99-01 yrs)
    LS7 Lifter Tray (requires 4 each) - $32 (for all)
    Oil, Oil Filter - $$ what ever brand you use (needed due to possible coolant contamination when pulling heads)


    Optional (I'm doing these)
    Manley CM Push Rods - $100 (smart investment to just do.
    Vacuum testing the heads - $ varies from shop to shop. I did this and found I had one intake valve not sealing. They lapped the valve and checked the spring for me and now it passes a vacuum test. If I didn't do this it would have gotten worse and I'd would have to break it all apart and try to chase it down.
    Milling the heads - this may be required in case the head has warped and also helps give a better seal with MLS gaskets



    To install reverse the order I gave above. Remember anti-seize for the bolts that need it. The head bolts, rocker arms and intake bolts all have torque specs. I can find them if you need them.
    Last edited by SMWS6TA; 12-11-2012 at 09:47 AM.

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    one more thing - pre soak the lifters in a container of oil for a few hours (like over night).

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    Like I said, it's the V6. If I had someplace to work I would do the work myself, but I don't have a garage to work in. It's also my DD so I need it back as soon as possible. I came up with about $315 in parts from autozone to replace everything they are. So double that for the "shop parts" and then they gave me $850 for labor. It's time consuming, like you said and the cost of labor is where they got me. But I don't have the time to do it myself or the place to work on it. If it was summer time, I would be able to work on it outside, but with limited sunlight and the temperature reaching only the 40's, it's rough.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    To do the v6, you remove the egr valve, serpentine belt, alternator,coil packs, valve covers, and intake manifold. If it wasn't my DD and I could let it just sit until spring/summer to do it myself I would. But they've got me by the balls right now.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    I'm so glad I took it somewhere and had them do it. I got the car back today and everything seemed to be running fine. This afternoon, I decided to get on the gas, it hit about 4500 rpm and the SES light started flashing again. I took it to autozone and had them read the code and it's the dreaded P0300 code. Now it's their mess to figure out what's causing it to be thrown. I'd be so pissed if I had opened it up myself and had it come back with that code. It's never thrown that code before. Last time it was just throwing p0301.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    So now instead of 1 cylinder misfiring, multiple cylinders are misfiring. That was nice of the shop to do that for you.

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    sounds like a coil pack to me. good luck, and hope they stand behind there work.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    So now instead of 1 cylinder misfiring, multiple cylinders are misfiring. That was nice of the shop to do that for you.
    But it's them that has to figure it out. Not me. They're going to stand behind their work. It wasn't throwing this code before they worked on it.

    I agree that it sounds like a coil pack.

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    How many miles on it?


    With the 3.8's they use to have this issue that around every 70,000 miles the plate that the coils sit on needs to be replace.

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    Member LgndKller20073's Avatar
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    There's 128,000 on there now. It wouldn't surprise me if they need to be replaced. I just replaced the spark plugs for the first time last week. Wires were next on the list.

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