View Poll Results: turbo or super?
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I prefer a supercharger to turbos.......
389 44.41% -
I prefer turbos to superchargers........
487 55.59%
Results 81 to 100 of 464
Thread: Turbo or Supercharger poll
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05-08-2006, 05:16 PM #81
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- 04 srt4 and 99 firebird
Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
So the one with the turbo will have slightly more.
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05-09-2006, 05:16 PM #82Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
A turbo DOES NOT need back pressure to drive drive it. However that does not mean that the pressure from the exhaust does not drive the turbo.
The original point made was turbo’s take power to drive them via Exh back pressure and Blowers take power off the crank to drive them. My factual rebuttal to that was, “the back pressure gained by driving the turbo is insignificant as compared to the blower” - case it point - we did more testing today on 3 2006 Mustangs.
It was a very interesting approach - the goal was to make 400hp. Magazine wanted to know how much boost it took to make 400 at the tires. Like I said all 3 cars were tested bone stock
Car 1 - made 256hp
Car 2 - made 260hp
Car 3 - made 262hp
Car 1 - we installed the new GMS turbo system with air to air front mount intercooler
Car 2 - we installed a Vortech with water to air after cooler
Car 3 - we installed a new KB 144 blower with 8 rib belt upgrade and water to air after cooler.
Car 1 - took 4.75 psi to meet the goal (401) - At 6 psi it had 435 and 441 ft-lbs.
Car 2 - took 9.10 psi to meet the goal (399.4) - At 6 psi it had 365 and 355 ft-lbs.
Car 3 - took 9.81 psi to meet the goal (401.2) At 6 psi it had 358 and 396 ft-lbs.
Notes -
Car 1 picked up 35hp by increasing boost by only 1.25psi – at 8psi it made 498hp and 509ft-lbs
Car 2 - took 3.1 psi to gain 35hp
Car 3 - took 3.8 psi to gain 42hp
You can shoot holes in the test notes and claim the other blowers do not have the ability to adjust boost like a turbo and therefore the test is off a bit as it relates to peal rpms but the real picture is in the original test. – HOW MUCH BOOST FROM VARIOUS FORCED INDUCTION SYSTEMS WILL IT TAKE TO MAKE 400 HP ON A NEW MUSTANG – Now we know
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05-09-2006, 05:18 PM #83Originally Posted by grandkodiak
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05-09-2006, 06:13 PM #84
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Phantom- 2002 HSV TT VX Clubsport
Twin turbos = Awesome driving experience
I have owned a vortech V7 charged ls1, Its just doesn't compare to the power of twin turbo's
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05-11-2006, 02:15 PM #85Originally Posted by Granatelli
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05-13-2006, 03:38 AM #86Originally Posted by Granatelli
Great tests. I'm not here to shoot holes. Here to learn.
1 question. water to air. What temp is the water? 180, engine thermostat. Or what ever the water temp is in the radiator??? I assume each car had proper tuning?
2. 9+ psi is high. How did you get them to run on that? Alcohol injuction. Race gas?
Conclusion to our point. At 6 PSI the turbo made 70 HP more than the others. If the turbo was free boost then it took 70 HP to drive the SC. If it was taking 100 HP to drive the SC then the turbo was robbing 30 HP. I doubt the water to air is nearly as good as the air to air. Why didn't they use the same intercooler on all tests? The #'s would have been much closer.
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05-13-2006, 03:39 AM #87
Was the boost measured in the intake or on the SC-turbo outlet?
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05-15-2006, 11:36 AM #88Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
Actually air to water works better on dyno blasts
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05-15-2006, 08:47 PM #89
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Green- 1996 Impala SS
Originally Posted by Granatelli
Secondly, did you put any type of free-flowing exhaust on the blower cars? Your turbo kit comes with high-flowing cats - did you use the same cats for the blower tests or did you use the stockers? It would be real easy to torpedo the blowers with a restrictive exhaust.
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05-16-2006, 12:27 PM #90Originally Posted by stonebreaker
http://www.kennebell.net/supercharge...gt05-06_3v.htm If you go to their website you will see the blower I tested as it appears to be right on their home page. They claim it will support 850 hp. I was told it was a 144. They call in a 2.4 which actaully makes it a 146.4 - So you are correct it is not a 144, it is a 146.4.
GMS merely did the testing. They had there own people doing all installs on the various cars and of the various kits. As I recall all the cars had stock exhaust manifolds (including the turbo car). AND the turbo car had a single 2.5" down pipe feeding back into the factory 2.5" exh.
Therefore they all had similar exh systems and the turbo was at the biggest disadvantage. If I wanted to stack the test int he favor of the turbo I could have run a 3" down pipe.Last edited by Granatelli; 05-16-2006 at 12:44 PM.
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05-16-2006, 03:10 PM #91
Air to water. Once again. is the water in the intercooler 180 degrees or what?
Was the boost measured at the intake or where?
Why didn't they use the same intercooler on all tests? The #'s would have been much closer.
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05-16-2006, 03:30 PM #92Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
This test was intended to show the performance of each product "as delivered” in fact the Kenne Bell blower was the only one that was not a direct off the shelf tested kit as it had a special 8 rib upgrade and a smaller blower pulley.
I am not here to fight with you guys - let’s go back 30 or 40 posts.
I like the turbo for power and torque. This is my opinion. I owned and operated Paxton for several years and I am credited with designing the Novi-2000
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05-16-2006, 05:35 PM #93
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Green- 1996 Impala SS
Originally Posted by Granatelli
As far as calling a 2.4 liter blower a 144, I wasn't there so it's impossible to verify your account; however, since KB uses metric nomenclature, I find it incredibly suspicious that you would convert the metric number to English units in your head and just happen to be off by 2 ci, "accidentally" identifying it incorrectly as a roots blower.
All told, I'm having a tough time accepting your assertions at face value. You've made too many technical errors in this thread to make me feel comfortable with your level of expertise - I get the feeling you're more into the sales side of things than you are the technical side.
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05-16-2006, 06:16 PM #94Originally Posted by stonebreaker
The facts are that I designed the Novi-2000 start to finish. To date it is the only 50 state legal supercharger capable of producing 1000 hp. I have dyno'd at least 15 '05 Paxton and or Vortech Mustangs and they are all pretty much the same. I have tested 3 KB '05 Mustangs this last one being what I was told as their best kit. It was the first to have the 8 rib conversion. As for converting from metric to otherwise, all the old timers (like me) go by cubic inches not liters. So if you chose to question my math so be it. Everyone at the test referred to the blower as the new KB 144.
Last week Magnusson tested what they called their new 170 blower on a H2 Hummer. But I guess you would call that a 2.7.
When guys ask me what kind of car I drive I say a LS1 Vette with a 350. I never call it a 5.7. Even though it is really a 5.6.
I raced Mod Motor Mustangs and they are commonly known as either 4.6 or 5.4 liter engines. No one calls them 281’s or 331’s. However when Saleen sells the car the badges the car as a 281 not a 4.6. Ford sells their race 4v race motor a Boss302 aka Cammer 5.0.
How guys here drive a 302 Mustang and how many drive 5.0? Last time I checked it was the same. 144 or 2.4 – ask me (which you did not) and I say you a few of you are hyperfocussing on the wrong thing.
The thing is the Turbo makes more power pound of boost for pound of boost or AKA lbs for lbs.
Someone asked did we measure boost in the motor at the blower. Once you go wide open it all equalizes so what is the difference where you measure it – the simple answer is ALL CARS WHERE MEASURED AT THE MANIFOLD.
The KB blower made boost sooner then the other combos but not more power or torque. That just tells me that it take more power to turn it down low.
As for the exhaust comment. – Like I said the kits were tested as delivered.
Let’s do this in reverse – you have a stone stock car and you have $6000 to spend on forced induction. How would you spend the 6k. I would buy a turbo. It will make the most power and torque and I will have money left over for a wax job. You can install a twin screw and headers and any cat or no cat – I will still make more power and torque pound for pound and that will mean less stress on the rotating assembly
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05-16-2006, 06:31 PM #95
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Green- 1996 Impala SS
Originally Posted by Granatelli
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05-16-2006, 06:45 PM #96Originally Posted by stonebreaker
OK I hear you loud and clear but again these kits were as supplied by the manufactures. Even if you add headers and no cats the test shows me they will not catch the turbo in the 4 to 10psi range
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05-16-2006, 08:43 PM #97
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i agree... even if the exaust did flow better it still wouldnt be enough of a gain to overcome the advantage the turbo holds
Stonebreaker, most public librarys have a book called Maximum Boost by corkey bell.. check it out. its a good read
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05-16-2006, 09:00 PM #98
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Green- 1996 Impala SS
Originally Posted by Granatelli
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05-16-2006, 09:25 PM #99
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Green- 1996 Impala SS
Originally Posted by Zakar
Considering that an LS1 has a 3.6" stroke, plus 48 square inches inches of piston area per revolution, each PSI of backpressure costs about 14 ft-lbs of torque. This is why it's so important for forced induction to have free-flowing exhaust. Granatelli mentioned earlier in this thread that his vette had 7 psi of backpressure even without the blower; Lingenfelter says that an efficient exhaust system should have no more than 2 psi of backpressure. Thus, his statement that the blower generates as much backpressure as a turbo is untrue, since an NA system with 7 psi of backpressure is overly restrictive even without a blower.
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05-17-2006, 05:47 AM #100Originally Posted by stonebreaker
Respectfully you are like a broken record but you keep playig the wrong songLast edited by Granatelli; 05-17-2006 at 06:11 AM.
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