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Thread: Foxbody vs. GTO LS2
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11-14-2007, 11:13 AM #61
You seem to not be getting it. The original topic was that a 302 cannot produce 600 rear-wheel horsepower. For some reason you keep coming at me with these SBF motors that are larger than 302 cubic-inches. We are NOT talking about 347's and 357's here - but 302's buddy. Got it? I know what SBF's are capable of. Trust me, i've come across many over the years (and spanked the majority ) No offense bud, but stick to the subject please!
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11-14-2007, 11:26 AM #62
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Red- 2000 Trans Am
I have seen plenty of lsx motors run 500-550rwhp which is around 600-650crank hp and still be very drivable, still get around 20mpg freeway. Thats all im saying.
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11-14-2007, 11:31 AM #63
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Red?- 2001 Z28
Big power figures, in and of themselves, do not impress me. However, ANY engine capable of producing 4-digit power figures, within the constraints of straight 93 octane pump gas, does. I'm most amazed by how mild a set-up that engine is. There doesn't appear to be any high-dollar induction pieces, and the cam profile is very street friendly.
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11-14-2007, 12:01 PM #64
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Red- 2000 Trans Am
What kinda turbo setup does it have, for a turbo car you dont want a huge cam, I have seen tons of 600-1500rwhp setups that other than traction factor drive pretty nice, now im not gonna say they drive like a stock car, you have to factor in big power means big support mods. Like stage 4 clutchs dont fell like stock, solid tranny and motor mounts make things more difficult. Things like that but yes anything making 4 digit power that is streetable is a awesome machine, however we were talking about N/A 302s. I dont go into a conversation on war politics and talk about how cool hippies are.
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11-14-2007, 12:35 PM #65
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
You're wrong again, and you should find something better to do with your time... No one said anything about any engine making 600 rwhp. First it was that a 302 could not make 500 rwhp. I was the one who first brought up the concept of a 302 making 600hp and at the crank not the rear. Why? Because a 302 that makes 600hp at the crank will make at least 500 at the rear tires. So it looks like you're the one who isn't getting it. Maybe you should reread the posts that led up to this point....slowly so you can comprehend.
I'll say it again, if a 357 can make 750 hp at the crank, then a 302 can make 600. You clearly don't know what they're capable of, or you wouldn't have said that 500rwhp couldn't be made by a 302.
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11-14-2007, 12:43 PM #66
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Red?- 2001 Z28
Well, I originally mentioned that motor for the amusement of Chris. As far as the 302 goes, when I had my 5.0s, I didn't consider a 331 or a 347 to be a "5.0," just as I don't consider a stroked 400-plus cube LSX to be a "5.7." Few people build stock displacement 5.0s anymore, because, unless they're racing in a class that limits displacement to 302 cubes, there's no point, considering how budget-friendly forged rotating stroker assemblies are. That being said, I can't understand why the notion of a n/a 600 flywheel hp, stock dispacement 302 is so unfathomable. Two hp/cubic is quite achievable. As I said in an earlier post, I believe it would require race fuel, a radical cam, and high rpms, but it's certainly attainable. It wouldn't be a "streetable" combo, persay, but the original poster never claimed it would be.
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11-14-2007, 12:47 PM #67
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
Which combo are you referring to, mine or the one in the article? I think you're referring to the one in the article since I never disclosed my cam specs. It doesn't look street friendly to me. That's huge duration and lift for a 302, and it's a solid roller cam, with an expensive parker funnel-web intake, a dart racing block, and aluminum rods. This setup, though it might run on the street, is an all-out race mill. I like the cost, though. $7300 for a 750+ hp 8000+ rpm motor is a f'n steal.
My combo, if that's what you're referring to, was meant to be a street combo will still have power steering, A/C, and a full interior. As mentioned by 2000T/A, cams for turbo cars are generally mild, and can't take advantage of exhaust scavenging so that have little or no overlap @ .050" lift. That makes their cams extremely street friendly, and the power that a turbo car can put out is more determined by how strong the internals are than the car's displacement. It's true that there is no replacement for displacement - a similarly built turbo car with more displacement will always make more power at the same boost than the smaller mill, but more often than not, the internals capabilities are maxed long before the turbo is. Don't expect your average LS2, or 408W to be capable of putting down the numbers that my lil 331 will with it's billet internals. While either of the other engines will make more at the same boost level, I'll be able to run much higher boost, and spin more rpm than they can.
Chris
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11-14-2007, 12:54 PM #68
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
You must be referring to my combo...? It's an HP kit with a GT42R-76mm Precision turbo. The LSA on that cam is only 112, and I don't want to go into details about it for Ed Curtis' sake, but it'll be barely noticeable... Now if there were only some way to deaden the sound of the turb and the loud weldon 2025A. Then I might be able to surprise a few people.
My stage 3 clutch is "streetable," and it's sprung. Stage 4s aren't, but I've heard great things about the streetability of the 1500+ hp Mcleod twin disks. What's harder than finding a streetable clutch is finding a streetable manual tranny to go in with it. The TKO600 doesn't stand a chance. T56s have been snapped like twigs. There's one called a Rockland Tranzilla that might work. G-force makes a couple that they claim will get the job done. I haven't made my decision, but I might end up with a fully prepped auto.
Chris
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11-14-2007, 12:59 PM #69
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Red?- 2001 Z28
Actually, I was neither referring to your combo, nor the one in the article you posted. I was referring you to an article in the June '07 issue of MM & FF, regarding a stroked and supercharged Windsor that eclipsed 1,000 hp on an engine dyno at 6,000 rpm, with relatively mild off-the-shelf parts, and on 93-octane pump gas. It was interesting reading.
Last edited by mrr23; 11-15-2007 at 05:40 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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11-14-2007, 01:04 PM #70
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
I'll take a look at that one, now that you mention it.
I don't consider a stroker a 5.0 either. Hell, I don't even consider a 5.0 a 5.0 since they're really closer to 4.9. I looked for the 4.9 badges to put on my fox when it was a twin-turbo 302, but then just decided to leave 'em off.
Your second point was one I made earlier and agree with wholeheartedly: noone except class racer's or engine builder competitions that limit displacement is going to try to make that much power from a 302 when they could have even more from a budget stroker. Eagle sells extremely affordable 4 digit power capable forged SBF Windsor internals. So, not to bring you into my irritated quarrel with N20LT4, but I don't have anything to prove to him. I just hate to see a bad case of ignorance and arrogance come in the same person.Last edited by mrr23; 11-15-2007 at 05:40 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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11-14-2007, 01:08 PM #71
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
Forgive the multiple posts, but I guess I was so interested in the idiot's comments that I missed yours...
That's pretty crazy, actually. Your combo looks extremely close to the way I built mine. Billet crank, oliver rods, AFR205s in my case. It's all about durability and low maintenance, which is why I stuck with hydraulic rollers. It will should turn 7000rpm all-day long. What'd you do with all of the parts?
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11-14-2007, 01:47 PM #72
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Red?- 2001 Z28
The car wasn't even parked on the street. The guy drove over the curb and creamed it. While I was still trying to decide which body style to buy as a replacement, a guy who had heard about my combo(and my dilemma) through a mutual friend, approached me about purchasing it. After he saw the spec sheet, he offered me what I had in it. Since I had no car to put it in anyways, I agreed to sell. I still sometimes wish I hadn't. The car had a Tremec TKO at the time, but I had planned on converting to an auto. Lentech said they could build an AOD for me that would hold the power, but other people were telling me to go with a C4. I was planning on completely redoing the car, chassis-wise, suspension-wise. You know, the typical things that must be done when adding that much power. It would have been a real nice package. Best of luck with your project. What type of power are you looking for?
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11-14-2007, 02:24 PM #73
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
Jesus Christ, are you my alter ego?
It's 8.5:1, I've got a Tremec TKO. I've talked to Lentech and they said that it could handle the power, but others have told me that they've been broken with similar power. We talked about building an AODE with a 3 disc locking convertor. TH400s and Powerglides have been recommended.
I think I can make at least 700 rwhp with a manual on pump at 14-15 psi. The GT42-76 with a more restrictive turbine A/R has put down over 1000 to the wheels through a manual. I also know a guy who ran 8.7@154 with the exact same turbo I have. He said he only saw something like 850 rwhp through his TH400. Both were also running 331s.
Chris
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11-14-2007, 02:26 PM #74
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
Oh, and do you know anything about 160th Army Aviation? Just wondering about your screen name.
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11-15-2007, 08:48 AM #75
O.K., so maybe the subject didn't seem important enough for me to read it through thoroughly. 600 instead of 500 - my fault. I was going off of another comment that lead me to believe we were talking rear-wheel. Anyways, I wouldn't doubt that a race headed 302 with race heads, a "strip-inspired" intake setup, and a solid roller cam could put those numbers up. Never seen it done, probably because it would be extremely impracticle, but nonetheless it can probably be done.
Funny though, considering my close friend "Cayenne97" who is a member of this site, made almost 460rwhp on his LT1 with only 185cc heads, a stock street/strip ported LT1 intake (by Advanced Induction), and a mild solid roller street grind with the stock 350 cubic-inches. That's just one of 15 LTx cars I can name in the Western states that produce 450 and up with the stock 350.
You may not believe that I know much about SBF's, but one thing I do know is those are the kind of naturally-aspirated numbers a 302-cubed motor could only dream about - or "stroke" about, get it?
Jay (aka MR. LT1)
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11-15-2007, 11:41 AM #76
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Black- '91 turbo fox, '97 vette
Sorry I got pissed off about it. I take shit to seriously sometimes.
Those are pretty impressive numbers for a streetable n/a combo at 350 c.i.
Chris
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11-15-2007, 12:10 PM #77
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Red- 2000 Trans Am
CAnt you feel the love
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11-16-2007, 11:08 AM #78
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11-16-2007, 02:12 PM #79
Wow all this becasue I post a kill for a friend of mine lol
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