offduty cop pulls gun on biker - aftermath WTF?!?

**allbaugh_04** · 07-20-2010, 06:22 PM

Undercover cops should state they are a cop, show badge, and never remove their gun unless intending to kill subject...at least thats what i though.

**Schmalgar** · 07-20-2010, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by 0rion

so they can record us without our consent but we can't record them? That's what I'm taking from it. If anyone needs to be recorded it's them.

Yeah that was my first reaction too. Figured someone would say it already. Thoroughly ridiculous.

**Schmalgar** · 07-20-2010, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by allbaugh_04

Undercover cops should state they are a cop, show badge, and never remove their gun unless intending to kill subject...at least thats what i though.

Yeah a guy cuts you off and jumps out of his car with a gun in hand? If you are legally (or not) carrying, you might react in an understandable way that gets somebody killed.

Hold that badge up first and identify yourself. It being down on his belt aint good enough.

**Zinergy** · 07-21-2010, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by wheeliE-maxx

I try not to be all "fuk da popo", but my vehicle with me driving has nearly been wrecked into thrice by marked squad cars. More instances in other vehicles and with other people driving. Not to mention the endless traffic violations and going 15-40 over the speed limit anywhere they go with no lights or siren. I've seen them stop at places to eat etc. after, so it can't be an emergency every time. And never once have I been in a car that got pulled over by a decent cop, only dickheads. My family is nothing but courteous and respectful to them anyway. I need a dashcam for this crap..

Same here, infact in highschool i did a work program with the local police, and for the 1 year i went to college i was majoring in criminal justice. But i was losing my respect for the justice system in high school and by the time i had started my 2nd semester at college I was done with trying to be any position in law enforcement. And im not some young criminal nor was I, the worst thing I ever got arrested for was possession of THC and underaged drinking when I was 18 or 19. Also a consealed weapon ticket for my desert eagle airsoft gun that was in my trunk LOL.

**Zinergy** · 07-21-2010, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Schmalgar

Yeah a guy cuts you off and jumps out of his car with a gun in hand? If you are legally (or not) carrying, you might react in an understandable way that gets somebody killed.

Hold that badge up first and identify yourself. It being down on his belt aint good enough.

Agreed, if I had a gun on me and someone did that I would indeed have pulled it out. And then went to jail for pulling a gun on a cop im sure.

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-21-2010, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Zinergy

Same here, infact in highschool i did a work program with the local police, and for the 1 year i went to college i was majoring in criminal justice. But i was losing my respect for the justice system in high school and by the time i had started my 2nd semester at college I was done with trying to be any position in law enforcement. And im not some young criminal nor was I, the worst thing I ever got arrested for was posession of THC and underaged drinking when I was 18 or 19. Also a consealed weapon ticket for my desert eagle airsoft gun that was in my trunk LOL.

How is a Airsoft (Plastic pellet) gun a concealed weapon?

**Zinergy** · 07-21-2010, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

How is a Airsoft (Plastic pellet) gun a concealed weapon?

IDK but I left my airsoft m16 in my buddys caprice wagon. He got arrested for drinking one night and they gave him the same concealed weapon ticket.

**allbaugh_04** · 07-21-2010, 10:35 AM

Thats not something you'd like to have on your record.

**86 IROC-Z** · 07-21-2010, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by allbaugh_04

Thats not something you'd like to have on your record.

Are you kidding me? I treat my rap sheet like a resume, it can only get better!!!

**Zinergy** · 07-21-2010, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by allbaugh_04

Thats not something you'd like to have on your record.

Neither is possession of THC, Im not sure which offense prompts most suburb cops to ask me if they can search my car on routine traffic stops, like no front plate, speeding, rolling stop. But I have been asked twice now if they can search my car, I always say no but once they made me wait for a k9 unit to show up so they could sniff around my car and I was 45min late coming back from lunch. Luckly my manager at the time had many issues with the cops around here so she was very understanding, she is a 64 year old serbian woman HAHA.

**IH8EVRY1** · 07-21-2010, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

How is a Airsoft (Plastic pellet) gun a concealed weapon?

B/C in most states, imitating with a toy is considered the same thing. I can't remember the case law, but a kid black magic markered the orange tip of an airsoft pistol and pointed it an an LOE. The LEO shot and killed him. Everyone was in a uproar because the police officer shot and killed an "unarmed" kid. The kid was giving the impression of being armed.

Same thing, we are seeing people carrying real weapons painted to look like airsoft pistols. You cannot tell a toy from a real gun 20 feet away and the intent is what is being charged in most of these cases. Just as you can be charged with armed robbery, even if you have no weapons, but commit a robbery and tell the victim you are armed. Alot of the charges are based on intent and perception.

With that said...I wouldn't charge a guy with an airsoft pistol just because I could. If they were trying to hide it or use it to imply that it was real, thats a different story.

As far as officers being videoed. I'm not sure what other guys who wear a badge think about it, but...I have made some enemies doing my job. I try to be cool as long as people let me be cool. I don't right traffic tickets for things that I would be doing and I don't screw with folks. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when I can but, I damn sure do not want videos of me all over the internet where people maybe able to further study and identify me outside of my job. Its a really bad feeling standing in line at a story holding your kid and looking at some guy thinking that you recognize him from somewhere and he's giving you the same look. Then it dawns on you that you fought with him, or arrested him or whatever the scenario is. Anything else out there (e.g. videos on youtube) that could further make me or my family a target is unnerving.

On to the guy having a health issue and his arrest being delayed. This is very common. In higher profile cases it may not happen that way or if the person is a flight risk for a more aggravated crime. The reality is, if he has health needs, the tax payers are paying for it while he incarcerated. Not to mention that not all facilities are equipped to properly care for someone with a health concern.

Now...the gun in hand thing. There is no law saying when and when not to pull your weapon as a police officer. There is use of force however and the right to protect yourself. I can't say if he was right or wrong for pulling his fire arm. I can say that it wasn't very smart on his part if he hadn't identified himself and was aiming his weapon at the guy. There may have been a million things going on and I try not to Monday morning QB but everyone has the right to protect themselves from death or great bodily harm. Someone pointing a gun at you would fall into those categories and without him identifying himself, he could have been viewed as a criminal committing a violent crime. I'm not saying he was right or wrong but that's one of those fine lines that plain clothes/off duty guys deal with.

**RJWZ28** · 07-21-2010, 10:21 PM

The LEO wasn't really wrong. There was obviously another officer already coming up behind the bike and he cut off the escape route. Drawing the gun was unwise, but not illegal. We are trained to identify ourselves in a confrontation. Stating that he was state police should have been his first action, not pulling the gun. From the other side of the fence, if I were on the bike and somebody jumped out of their car and walked towards me while drawing a gun, I may have drawn and shot him. So once again, his approach without identifying himself prior to drawing his weapon was very unwise.

However, the actions of the police after the stop are completely out of line. Federal wiretapping laws and public videotaping do not go hand-in-hand. It has already been made quite clear by my agency that videotaping LEOs is not a punishable offense and we are not to pursue any legal action against people solely for recording an encounter. As long as we are doing our job, we shouldn't have to worry anyway, right? The police in this situation owe this guy some apologies and reimbursement for his equipment, and it sounds like state and local police need to get their heads out of their crack when they're interpreting the law.

Just my honest opinion (reinforced by on-the-job training and experience

)

**Schmalgar** · 07-21-2010, 10:47 PM

Good to hear some of you LEOs chime in with your opinions about him drawing the weapon and your knowledge on the 'wiretapping' in this case...

Thanks for your take...

**pecha** · 07-22-2010, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by RJWZ28

The LEO wasn't really wrong. There was obviously another officer already coming up behind the bike and he cut off the escape route. Drawing the gun was unwise, but not illegal. We are trained to identify ourselves in a confrontation. Stating that he was state police should have been his first action, not pulling the gun. From the other side of the fence, if I were on the bike and somebody jumped out of their car and walked towards me while drawing a gun, I may have drawn and shot him. So once again, his approach without identifying himself prior to drawing his weapon was very unwise.

However, the actions of the police after the stop are completely out of line. Federal wiretapping laws and public videotaping do not go hand-in-hand. It has already been made quite clear by my agency that videotaping LEOs is not a punishable offense and we are not to pursue any legal action against people solely for recording an encounter. As long as we are doing our job, we shouldn't have to worry anyway, right? The police in this situation owe this guy some apologies and reimbursement for his equipment, and it sounds like state and local police need to get their heads out of their crack when they're interpreting the law.

Just my honest opinion (reinforced by on-the-job training and experience

)

glad to see not all the cops are like this one:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jftEaxFJNWg[/ame]

**SHines-IT** · 07-22-2010, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by pecha

glad to see not all the cops are like this one:

There's much worse, where a group of photograghers was arrested in New York...

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-22-2010, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by pecha

glad to see not all the cops are like this one:

This is why I could never have been a cop. Cop was in the right to ask the photographer to move on. The camera guy intentionally wanted to instigate the situation.

**pecha** · 07-22-2010, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

This is why I could never have been a cop. Cop was in the right to ask the photographer to move on. The camera guy intentionally wanted to instigate the situation.

can you explain more?

IMHO you can ask me but I do not have to comply

**IH8EVRY1** · 07-23-2010, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by pecha

can you explain more?

IMHO you can ask me but I do not have to comply

If you are interfering with the officers job they can ask you to leave. If your presence and actions are drawing attention that is getting dangerous or causing the victim's or suspects to not be able to communicate, it's interfering with what's going on. At that point the police officer can ask you to leave or actually tell you to leave. If you don't, they are justifiable to arrest you.

**RJWZ28** · 07-23-2010, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by pecha

glad to see not all the cops are like this one:

That's a little different. The cop didn't know the law very well as far as reasonable expectation of privacy goes, but the photographer was acting with the intent to cause a situation. Asking him to move along was fine, telling him he can't photograph was not. Asking him for his ID when he refused to move along? Completely legit. If I'm doing my job and somebody who I know nothing about is standing behind me and objecting to my instructions to move, I want to know who I'm dealing with. I probably would have ran his ID too. My reasons for telling him to move along may have been different (I don't care if I'm photographed, I just don't want some random guy hovering over me while I'm conducting a vehicle stop) but the result would have probably been similar:

'Move along, sir.'
"But the sidewalk is open, I don't have to"
'For your safety and mine, please move along'
"But I have a right to stand here, the sidewalk is open"
'ID please. Sit down. Thank you.'

**IH8EVRY1** · 07-23-2010, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by RJWZ28

That's a little different. The cop didn't know the law very well as far as reasonable expectation of privacy goes, but the photographer was acting with the intent to cause a situation. Asking him to move along was fine, telling him he can't photograph was not. Asking him for his ID when he refused to move along? Completely legit. If I'm doing my job and somebody who I know nothing about is standing behind me and objecting to my instructions to move, I want to know who I'm dealing with. I probably would have ran his ID too. My reasons for telling him to move along may have been different (I don't care if I'm photographed, I just don't want some random guy hovering over me while I'm conducting a vehicle stop) but the result would have probably been similar:

'Move along, sir.'
"But the sidewalk is open, I don't have to"
'For your safety and mine, please move along'
"But I have a right to stand here, the sidewalk is open"
'ID please. Sit down. Thank you.'

I concur. I don't like to be photographed/videoed but my reasons are personal and an opinion as I've said before. Someone just hanging out is a risk of their own and ours. We have to watch them and what we were originally doing so that all parties involved stay reasonably safe. I don't like things that divide my attention and decrease safety because of it.