Patriot or Edelbrock

**SSwt00SS** · 03-26-2008, 07:23 AM

i feel compelled to give the bad of each for the sake of the OP...

high dollar AFR heads (dropped atleast $2500-3000 for 5rwhp gain over his old setup)...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=878319

budget Patriot heads (who the hell knows what the deal is here, car is an A4 unlocked on his dyno)...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=886647

**chieftransam** · 03-26-2008, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by FuhBreezeE

You can stop gargling his ****s about now, btw.

**Frost** · 03-26-2008, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by FuhBreezeE

Skewed numbers much? Glad he ran those times, but something isn't adding up there. LG's cams aren't anything to lose your mind over.

Skewed how? Because you don't like them? Everyone that I listed was tuned on the nearly-industry-standard Dynojet 224. I listed his track times (and he went 118.x MPH btw) to show against his dyno #'s. But I'm lying and everyone should listen to you because what you and your friend got from them means that ALL other results must be the same. You don't have to be a jerk because you don't agree. I don't sell any one of these heads, so it's not like I have some motive, I just want to see people do the best they can.

Originally Posted by SSwt00SS

i feel compelled to give the bad of each for the sake of the OP...

high dollar AFR heads (dropped atleast $2500-3000 for 5rwhp gain over his old setup)...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=878319

budget Patriot heads (who the hell knows what the deal is here, car is an A4 unlocked on his dyno)...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=886647

While I am SURE that you can find low dyno'ing setups with AFR, Trick Flow, and more, that example really isn't the best one yet and I'll tell you why. Something is very likely wrong with the bottom end in that car. His numbers on compression seem consistent, but look low in comparison to two other cars done in the last 2 weeks after his that were stock (210-215 throughout). He was out of town for a few weeks but a leakdown test should be done within a week. He changed the oil right before the dyno, and when he cut his filter (which he commonly does) it was slam full of metal, and much of it looked both copper and bronze in addition to silver

At any rate, if intrested, keep an eye on that thread it will be updated. And FWIW, it wasn't just heads, he added the heads, had them milled to bump compression, AND added a Fast90/90 setup to gain that 5 at peak and LOSE OUT under the curve. Poor guy.

**FuhBreezeE** · 03-26-2008, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Frost

Skewed how? Because you don't like them? Everyone that I listed was tuned on the nearly-industry-standard Dynojet 224. I listed his track times (and he went 118.x MPH btw) to show against his dyno #'s. But I'm lying and everyone should listen to you because what you and your friend got from them means that ALL other results must be the same. You don't have to be a jerk because you don't agree.

Using your logic that means we should all listen to you then? You want to bash something many of us have spent $1k on? Be my guest, but do it via PM. Here again, this is all opinion, because guess what? All of these cars are different in every single way. You cannot blame patriots every time.

**SSwt00SS** · 03-26-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Frost

While I am SURE that you can find low dyno'ing setups with AFR, Trick Flow, and more, that example really isn't the best one yet and I'll tell you why. Something is very likely wrong with the bottom end in that car. His numbers on compression seem consistent, but look low in comparison to two other cars done in the last 2 weeks after his that were stock (210-215 throughout). He was out of town for a few weeks but a leakdown test should be done within a week. He changed the oil right before the dyno, and when he cut his filter (which he commonly does) it was slam full of metal, and much of it looked both copper and bronze in addition to silver

At any rate, if intrested, keep an eye on that thread it will be updated. And FWIW, it wasn't just heads, he added the heads, had them milled to bump compression, AND added a Fast90/90 setup to gain that 5 at peak and LOSE OUT under the curve. Poor guy.

i understand and agree with you that regardless of the brand one goes with there will be 'lemons' so to speak in the batch. i did read both threads because in both cases there seems to be issues with both vehicles, in some shape/form or fashion that was noticed after heads (or in the AFR thread, more) were installed....

you can bet that i will be keeping an eye on both threads to see what if any follow up shows. it almost sounds like in the case of the latter vehicle, his engine is 'eating itself' up if he is finding all that metal in his filter...

**shady milkman** · 03-26-2008, 01:39 PM

i think alot of this..is the wrong heads for the set-up..i would tend to trust the word of a known tuner and someone with no motive.

**shady milkman** · 03-26-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by SSwt00SS

i understand and agree with you that regardless of the brand one goes with there will be 'lemons' so to speak in the batch.

what i want to know is the percentage of lemons between heads

**SSwt00SS** · 03-26-2008, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

what i want to know is the percentage of lemons between heads

that wont ever truly be known. sure someone can say well ive tried "x" number of sets of heads of brand "z" heads and out of those "x", only "y" have performed. now try to comprehend that over the 1000's of heads sold by any aftermarket company. at that point it's not EVEN taking into account other mods done to said vehicle, etc. as everyone knows or should know, not every car with similar mods will respond the same. to many varibles to take into account. nothing in life is guaranteed like many of us wish things should be...

for example: just like with Comp 918's, bad batches can happen, but in the over all scope its very minute in scale. remember bad news always travels faster than good news and people love jumping on bandwagons, EVEN IF they have had no personal experience with said product...

**fbodynut** · 03-26-2008, 03:33 PM

RPM extreme ls series head # 61949
Performer rpm cam # 2218
If anyone has a copy, turn to page 5 of the Jan 08 issue of GM High Tech.
You will see an add for the edelbrock ls series head cam set up. They claim 457hp/438 tq on a stock ls6 engine. So........If this were to be accurate, then would one of our 5.7's with the ls6 intake (or the fast) and this head/cam setup get some decent numbers?

**fbodynut** · 03-26-2008, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by FuhBreezeE

Using your logic that means we should all listen to you then? You want to bash something many of us have spent $1k on? Be my guest, but do it via PM. Here again, this is all opinion, because guess what? All of these cars are different in every single way. You cannot blame patriots every time.

Hey,, you and frost argue like an old married couple!!!

I am just after the facts. Every one has op's, and that's cool, but dyno sheets and qtr mile slips show the facts...right??

**fbodynut** · 03-26-2008, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by SSwt00SS

personally i have had nothing shy of a great experience with my patriot heads and the rest of my setup as a whole. i bought my patriots brand new off a member of this sight for $900 bucks. though my numbers arent 'typical' in regards to the nature of my mods, the proof is there...

Frost and I have exhausted each other over this, but we have come to the agreement that they 'could' be hit and miss with 'some' applications...

i cant speak about Edlebrock heads, as i dont personally know anyone who runs them. to the OP, do your research and figure out what your goals are with your car and then decide on your own if dropping $1000 or more for heads that might give you 5rwhp more is worth it, because there are people out there who have used high dollar heads and have experienced the same 'lack of gains' (5-10rwhp gains over thier previous setup) as those with budget heads...

it boils down to this: poor gains after installing any aftermarket heads will leave a bitter taste in one's mouth...

Goals are to make reliable consistant power on the motor only, and be able to drive it daily. Right now I would settle for 400 hp to the ground. Long term is 500 to the pavement and still have street manners.
Part of my research is to hit the boards and see what people are running, and can back up their numbers

**SSwt00SS** · 03-26-2008, 04:29 PM

really in the end, dyno sheets mean nothing compared to 1/8mi or 1/4mi times...

rapter34 · 03-26-2008, 04:31 PM

not really. dyno numbers tell you what the car will do. 1/4 tell you what a car and a DRIVER can do.

**SSwt00SS** · 03-26-2008, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by rapter34

not really. dyno numbers tell you what the car will do. 1/4 tell you what a car and a DRIVER can do.

exactly. you can have a 500rwhp car proven w/said dyno sheet, however if the driver cant turn times that would be consistant with having such power, all the dyno sheet offers is a conversation starter and nothing more...

**Bottesini** · 03-26-2008, 04:59 PM

It is a shame but every brand and place will have lemons. All we can do is share our experiences and hope for the best. That being said some places are more consistent then others, and that is part of the price we pay. One thing that I find very reasurring is how Tony is willing to take the time and look for any faults personally, even as a token gesture it is better then some places I have heard of and dealt with. I am positive Gunner would do the same. From my personal experiences (from others I know) Patriot seems to make a fine budget head, which is fine for some, just don't expect them to be the best out.

**INMY01TA** · 03-26-2008, 07:54 PM

Budget heads I'd go PRC before Patriot.

**99Ls1fever** · 03-31-2008, 09:41 AM

I am a big fan of the Patriot's and have ran them on 2 different engines and both stage 2's and stage 3 's have been goo to me

**fbodynut** · 03-31-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by INMY01TA

Budget heads I'd go PRC before Patriot.

PRC??

**fbodynut** · 03-31-2008, 03:47 PM

With all the hit and miss results with Patriots, I am wondering if maybe there isn't some other factors involved here too. Cam choice? Matched/correct springs, pushrods to go with cam? I don't know, but I can't imagine a company out there selling a product with such poor QA that flow could vary so much in two different sets of heads coming from the same place.

**jujofields** · 03-31-2008, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by fbodynut

RPM extreme ls series head # 61949
Performer rpm cam # 2218
If anyone has a copy, turn to page 5 of the Jan 08 issue of GM High Tech.
You will see an add for the edelbrock ls series head cam set up. They claim 457hp/438 tq on a stock ls6 engine. So........If this were to be accurate, then would one of our 5.7's with the ls6 intake (or the fast) and this head/cam setup get some decent numbers?

You said a stock engine...so is that only pertaining to the engine being unmodified or are bolt-ons involved as well?