what mustang has to do to beat a camaro!

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2009, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

03-04 cobra motors came from the factor already having forged internals w/ low compression and high flowing 4v heads and a supercharger, it better put out some power.

and it did...

**Johns00Z28** · 10-19-2009, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

and it did...

Interestingly no more than full bolt-on LS1's....not overly impressive in my book.

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2009, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

Interestingly no more than full bolt-on LS1's....not overly impressive in my book.

seriously ? 368 across the board from a 4.6 that is supercharged and has a bogus ass weak pulley..and you are going to compare that to a intake, exhaust, tune 5.7 liter ?? and say it makes just as much..that isn't impressive ?

ok for shits and giggles..lets do a pulley swap on the 4.6 and that is it...how does a full bolt-on 5.7 do against that ? or maybe throw in a tune there so a pulley tuned 4.6 ..that would throw down in the range 425 to the floor .....the ls1's will loose this battle when it comes to modding vs the termy..with the 5.7 staying N/A.

**Johns00Z28** · 10-19-2009, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

seriously ? 368 across the board from a 4.6 that is supercharged and has a bogus ass weak pulley..and you are going to compare that to a intake, exhaust, tune 5.7 liter ?? and say it makes just as much..that isn't impressive ?

ok for shits and giggles..lets do a pulley swap on the 4.6 and that is it...how does a full bolt-on 5.7 do against that ? or maybe throw in a tune there so a pulley tuned 4.6 ..that would throw down in the range 425 to the floor .....the ls1's will loose this battle when it comes to modding vs the termy..with the 5.7 staying N/A.

I simply stated my opinion...I'm not impressed. If you're so impressed why not sell your ls1 and go get one??

**Zinergy** · 10-19-2009, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

I simply stated my opinion...I'm not impressed. If you're so impressed why not sell your ls1 and go get one??

Well a 03/04 cobra can make 500whp with bolt ons and tuning using the stock supercharger and forged internals dont add power just reliability.

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2009, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

I simply stated my opinion...I'm not impressed. If you're so impressed why not sell your ls1 and go get one??

seriously ?

because i am very impressed with a engine not in a gm..i should sell my bird for it

i love my bird and i love the ls1. but as i stated..respect should be given to great motors..even if they arent the generals...i like the new italino ..so i should sell my bird and go get it

its fine that you're not impressed with that motor in your own opinion..but dont you think you should be able to back up that opinion or at least be able to argue it ?

**Johns00Z28** · 10-19-2009, 07:21 AM

I did argue it...I said a bolton ls1 makes similar hp as the cobra w/ it's superior head design, forged internals and forced induction. With all those advantages it has, an ls1 will still run w/ them. You stated that "the ls1 is not the end all for engines", well neither is a supercharged 4.6. And if you feel this motor or any other is superior and you have the funds, why wouldn't you get one?

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2009, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

I did argue it...I said a bolton ls1 makes similar hp as the cobra w/ it's superior head design, forged internals and forced induction. With all those advantages it has, an ls1 will still run w/ them. You stated that "the ls1 is not the end all for engines", well neither is a supercharged 4.6. And if you feel this motor or any other is superior and you have the funds, why wouldn't you get one?

but you do understand the flaw in your argument don't you ? a modded larger displacement engine can keep up with a stock smaller displacement engine with a s/c..stock vs modded is never a good thing or else you get civic fan boys..my fully modded civic can beat a ls1...doesn't make that shit can a better car or have a "better" engine....but you are right..its your opinion and you are entitled to it.

i never said the 4.6 supercharged was the end all ...but for ls1 owners to laugh and down play a engine that can out do them is horribly ignorant. If i had a lot of funds to drop after i got a vette..i would have no problem adding a termi to my collection ...or even a mach 1. One of my dream cars is the GT..a 5.2 s/c that can easily push 600+ modded is a wonderful thing. that and its amazing body design and engine drive layout .

but to answer your question on why i dont right now
1. because i am a N/A guy ....
2. i like the simplicity of the gm pushrod
3. i'm a gm guy
4. i love the styling of my bird and will keep it forever

**SiggyZ** · 10-19-2009, 08:14 AM

I know that. Ford did a great job building the motor to handle a blower. I've always thought those '03-'04 Cobras were beasts out of the box that take very little to make unbelievably fast.

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

03-04 cobra motors came from the factor already having forged internals w/ low compression and high flowing 4v heads and a supercharger, it better put out some power.

**Johns00Z28** · 10-19-2009, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

but you do understand the flaw in your argument don't you ? a modded larger displacement engine can keep up with a stock smaller displacement engine with a s/c..stock vs modded is never a good thing or else you get civic fan boys..my fully modded civic can beat a ls1...doesn't make that shit can a better car or have a "better" engine....but you are right..its your opinion and you are entitled to it.

i never said the 4.6 supercharged was the end all ...but for ls1 owners to laugh and down play a engine that can out do them is horribly ignorant. If i had a lot of funds to drop after i got a vette..i would have no problem adding a termi to my collection ...or even a mach 1. One of my dream cars is the GT..a 5.2 s/c that can easily push 600+ modded is a wonderful thing. that and its amazing body design and engine drive layout .

but to answer your question on why i dont right now
1. because i am a N/A guy ....
2. i like the simplicity of the gm pushrod
3. i'm a gm guy
4. i love the styling of my bird and will keep it forever

Don't forget you're comparing forced induction to NA which is not exactly a fair comparison even w/ it's smaller 4.6. It more than makes up for any displacement difference. I'm not sure who was laughing and downplaying the cobra but yes that would be ignornat.

**Zinergy** · 10-19-2009, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

Don't forget you're comparing forced induction to NA which is not exactly a fair comparison even w/ it's smaller 4.6. It more than makes up for any displacement difference. I'm not sure who was laughing and downplaying the cobra but yes that would be ignornat.

The only downside to the cobra 4.6 S/C engine is the weight of it. You literally dont have to touch the long block to make 600-700whp reliably. Just fuel system and a better S/C and supporting mods. That is pretty impressive.

**Johns00Z28** · 10-19-2009, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Zinergy

The only downside to the cobra 4.6 S/C engine is the weight of it. You literally dont have to touch the long block to make 600-700whp reliably. Just fuel system and a better S/C and supporting mods. That is pretty impressive.

I can assure you it's level of reliability is significanty reduced when making more than 700rwhp.

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

Don't forget you're comparing forced induction to NA which is not exactly a fair comparison even w/ it's smaller 4.6. It more than makes up for any displacement difference. I'm not sure who was laughing and downplaying the cobra but yes that would be ignornat.

i wasn't referring to you..just a lot of people on here in general.

ok so fair enough about the n/a vs FI..even tho the s/c does close the gap on displacement but that argument is for another time.

**Firebirdjones** · 10-19-2009, 09:03 AM

Why is this even being debated? The only thing that impresses me is when you actually see a naturally aspirated car beating a power adder car. Hard to do in most cases with any car.
I've had my fair share of run in's with these 03-04 cobra's. A buddy of mine had one that was mildly modded that ran bottom 11's at over 120 mph,,, and we had alot of fun with each other. I don't hate these cars at all,,,but anything with a power adder puts the car in a different playing field all together.
Trying to compare in a way to equal an NA motor just seems silly to me.

**Zinergy** · 10-19-2009, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Johns00Z28

I can assure you it's level of reliability is significanty reduced when making more than 700rwhp.

Not as much as you would think, with a good tune its internals can hold up for a long time.

I can assure you the ls1's long block's level of reliability are significantly reduced when making more than 500whp. Game set and match, even if you arent impressed with the power because it uses FI you cant get around the fact that the long block itself can take more abuse than almost any other factory long block.

**Zinergy** · 10-19-2009, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Why is this even being debated? The only thing that impresses me is when you actually see a naturally aspirated car beating a power adder car. Hard to do in most cases with any car.
I've had my fair share of run in's with these 03-04 cobra's. A buddy of mine had one that was mildly modded that ran bottom 11's at over 120 mph,,, and we had alot of fun with each other. I don't hate these cars at all,,,but anything with a power adder puts the car in a different playing field all together.
Trying to compare in a way to equal an NA motor just seems silly to me.

Even a NA motor thats a full 2.4 liters bigger will have trouble making those numbers and if it does it will be far less streetable. Think of the build that a 7.0 liter would need to make 650-700whp, it would be quite agressive.

**Firebirdjones** · 10-19-2009, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Zinergy

Even a NA motor thats a full 2.4 liters bigger will have trouble making those numbers and if it does it will be far less streetable. Think of the build that a 7.0 liter would need to make 650-700whp, it would be quite agressive.

Yep you are right. It's all about what a person is willing to tollerate. I personally like a nasty NA motor. Just the sounds they make scream muscle. But I'm an old schooler. I find my 638 HP chevelle very streetable. Can still use the A/C, doesn't run hot and still uses pump gas. It has a pretty choppy roller cam and a loose converter, but to me it's just fine for a street car. I could drive it daily if I had to.
A smooth idling turbo car is kinda boring to me. But they make stupid power too. It is much easier to make more power and still be very docile on the street. That's a nice advantage.

**Johns00Z28** · 10-19-2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Zinergy

Not as much as you would think, with a good tune its internals can hold up for a long time.

I can assure you the ls1's long block's level of reliability are significantly reduced when making more than 500whp. Game set and match, even if you arent impressed with the power because it uses FI you cant get around the fact that the long block itself can take more abuse than almost any other factory long block.

So you have proof that a cobra motor will take more abuse than any other long block? I can only assume you mean production although you did not specify. Here's a few cobra motors that didn't make it.

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...=blown+engines

**HOBS** · 10-19-2009, 05:56 PM

IMO I think it's pathetic that a GT500 will barely beat an SS and all because Ford-boys didn't like the outcome of an SS vs GT. Would've made more sense to put a V6 Camaro against a GT than jumping to the GT500.

**fergyflyer** · 10-19-2009, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

im sorry but tq per liter and hp per liter is bullshit and has no real world meaning.

and sorry but the termy engine is better then the ls1 stock for stock period ..hand built or not ..it doesn't matter...and of course a 7 liter engine will put up better numbers then a 4.6 ..that is just a stupid comparison..try a mach 1 with the 4.6 4v engine..the one that will give a f-body a run for its money..stock for stock...im a huge gm guy..but i give respect where respect is due...they made a great machine in the termys ...they gave the 4.6 great heads and a good s/c and it makes and makes..and makes great power...the ls1 is not the end all for engines.

I wasn't just talking about a Termi engine versus a LS1. I was talking about the whole Modular V8 versus GM's V8 program. Gm has built some pretty impressive purpose built motors. That's what the Termi is, a low volume purpose built motor.

Take a look at the 4.4 liter Northstar. It makes more hp than the vaunted Termi motor with less displacement. They have potential to produce 600 plus rwhp in XLR's with the same mods that Termi's get and the 4.4 liter Northstars are smaller.

Mach 1's are a great car but stock for stock they get beat by LS1 F-bodies.