Need all Ford Haters help!!!!

[310stanger]

Wait ... you can mod a Ford motor?? ... Since when..

well summit racing took a few grand from me sayin ya could. fuck I hope those bastards werent lying

[snaggeltooth]

well summit racing took a few grand from me sayin ya could. fuck I hope those bastards werent lying

OK ...Ok .. you can make on faster ...but there is NO WAY you can make one as fast as LS1 f-body ...

[310stanger]

OK ...Ok .. you can make on faster ...but there is NO WAY you can make one as fast as LS1 f-body ...

rocket powered you might come close

[snaggeltooth]

rocket powered you might come close

I beet this guy by 2 lenths ....in the GTO ...

[Marc 85Z28]

custom cams, stroker cranks, bolt ons, poweradders. you clearly dont know what you are talking about

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Again, they have but one aftermarket cylinder head casting that was just released. Everything else is Ford castings. They only have but a handful of cam lobe grinds available - not like you'd want to put cams in a mod motor anyway as they don't make any power. The LTx and LSx have over a dozen aftermarket heads available, and can be built from 260-500+ cubic inches - the Ford has but a few options when it comes to displacement. The mod motor crowd focuses on forced induction for a reason. And the "radical" builds get stock ported heads on a 5.0L stroker with a monster power adder - because it's all that's available. Certainly not even close to the 5.0L options or the SBC, or even the LTx and LSx stuff.

[mogs01gt]

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Again, they have but one aftermarket cylinder head casting that was just released. Everything else is Ford castings. They only have but a handful of cam lobe grinds available - not like you'd want to put cams in a mod motor anyway as they don't make any power. The LTx and LSx have over a dozen aftermarket heads available, and can be built from 260-500+ cubic inches - the Ford has but a few options when it comes to displacement. The mod motor crowd focuses on forced induction for a reason. And the "radical" builds get stock ported heads on a 5.0L stroker with a monster power adder - because it's all that's available. Certainly not even close to the 5.0L options or the SBC, or even the LTx and LSx stuff.

You really are ignoring a lot of facts here. The SBC has been around for a very long time. Meaning there are already tried and true ways to create after-market heads. If you look at the SBF 5.0, there wasnt many options for heads until the Ford Fox Body came along. Its the same for all engines, you cant come up with heads in a few years. It took 15 years to get heads for a SOHC mod engine. That really isnt that bad considering how long the SBC or SBF were in production before the after-market caught up. Currently, there are over five right now that does cams for the Mod engines and only 4 companies that do intake manifolds. All of the major forced induction companies make blower kits and that doenst include the turbo kits that are out there.

There is tons of after-market items out there if you look at the entire car and not use the engine parts for a mis-guided opinion.

[Marc 85Z28]

You really are ignoring a lot of facts here. The SBC has been around for a very long time. Meaning there are already tried and true ways to create after-market heads. If you look at the SBF 5.0, there wasnt many options for heads until the Ford Fox Body came along. Its the same for all engines, you cant come up with heads in a few years. It took 15 years to get heads for a SOHC mod engine. That really isnt that bad considering how long the SBC or SBF were in production before the after-market caught up. Currently, there are over five right now that does cams for the Mod engines and only 4 companies that do intake manifolds. All of the major forced induction companies make blower kits and that doenst include the turbo kits that are out there.

There is tons of after-market items out there if you look at the entire car and not use the engine parts for a mis-guided opinion.

You're ignoring the fact that the LSx platform is a much newer platform than the mod motor and has had numerous aftermarket cylinder head choices for YEARS. The SBC and LS1 heads are completely different, so you cannot use the SBC legacy as an arguement for that. The first aftermarket casting LS1 head was available 4 years after the introduction of the platform. The reason the mod motor hasn't had any development is because of the poor market due to lack of performance, demand, and widely accepted FACT that you build mod motors with boost.

[Detroit Power]

One of the biggest drawbacks of the modular motor is the casting. Cylinder walls too thin, block too wide.

Compared to the venerable 5.0L 302, the 4.6L 281 is very large in exterior dimensions.

As a former mustang guy I'll admit the aftermarket for modular motors is very slow. Saying we have no choices for heads, cams, intakes, exhaust, etc. is just plain ignorant though. The problem is, an intake for a modular 4.6 will run in excess of $1,200, whereas the 5.0L guys have a SLEW of parts available to them closer to $350. That's one of the reasons I sold mine...it was costing a fortune to make it fast. The saving grace is you can have an emmissions compliant 400HP car with a simple bolt-on blower. Radical cams and exhaust would never be an option for me because I live near Atlanta and have yearly testing.

LS1 pushrod technology is old hat, but it's tried-n'-true. How much power do you think a SOHC or better yet a DOHC mod motor would make in comparison, if it could be punched out to the cubes you LS guys are blessed with? Probably equal to if not more than what you're seeing.

When it comes down to it, this battle will be fought for years to come as it has for decades, which is stupid. The real "enemy" out there should be imports.

Can't domestics just get along?

[Marc 85Z28]

One of the biggest drawbacks of the modular motor is the casting. Cylinder walls too thin, block too wide.

Compared to the venerable 5.0L 302, the 4.6L 281 is very large in exterior dimensions.

As a former mustang guy I'll admit the aftermarket for modular motors is very slow. Saying we have no choices for heads, cams, intakes, exhaust, etc. is just plain ignorant though. The problem is, an intake for a modular 4.6 will run in excess of $1,200, whereas the 5.0L guys have a SLEW of parts available to them closer to $350. That's one of the reasons I sold mine...it was costing a fortune to make it fast. The saving grace is you can have an emmissions compliant 400HP car with a simple bolt-on blower. Radical cams and exhaust would never be an option for me because I live near Atlanta and have yearly testing.

LS1 pushrod technology is old hat, but it's tried-n'-true. How much power do you think a SOHC or better yet a DOHC mod motor would make in comparison, if it could be punched out to the cubes you LS guys are blessed with? Probably equal to if not more than what you're seeing.

When it comes down to it, this battle will be fought for years to come as it has for decades, which is stupid. The real "enemy" out there should be imports.

Can't domestics just get along?

But that's just it... it cannot be increased in displacement significantly. And there are NO other choices for heads other than Ford. That's the basis of my statement, yet so many want to argue? The mod motor in a nutshell is too big, too heavy, and has no choice to make power other than forced induction. And the LSx is FAAAR cheaper to build than a mod motor, and forced induction aside, the power comparison is a joke.

[side2000]

You're talking just motor, I'm talking overall aftermarket.

That includes hoods, exhaust, bolt ons, interior parts, etc.

ricer stuff. . . . .

[side2000]

You really are ignoring a lot of facts here. The SBC has been around for a very long time. Meaning there are already tried and true ways to create after-market heads. If you look at the SBF 5.0, there wasnt many options for heads until the Ford Fox Body came along. Its the same for all engines, you cant come up with heads in a few years. It took 15 years to get heads for a SOHC mod engine. That really isnt that bad considering how long the SBC or SBF were in production before the after-market caught up. Currently, there are over five right now that does cams for the Mod engines and only 4 companies that do intake manifolds. All of the major forced induction companies make blower kits and that doenst include the turbo kits that are out there.

There is tons of after-market items out there if you look at the entire car and not use the engine parts for a mis-guided opinion.

the ls1 head is an entirely different design from the SBC of old, and aftermarket companies sprinted to make a head of their own. it only took a couple years from it's '97 debut for a slew of heads to flood the market by aftermarket companies. 15 years for SOCK heads to show up?. . . .you cant possibly believe that it took 15 years just 'cuz it took that long to produce one. . . . . no1 wants to dick with a motor that has 5 ft timing chain.

[Detroit Power]

the ls1 head is an entirely different design from the SBC of old, and aftermarket companies sprinted to make a head of their own. it only took a couple years from it's '97 debut for a slew of heads to flood the market by aftermarket companies. 15 years for SOCK heads to show up?. . . .you cant possibly believe that it took 15 years just 'cuz it took that long to produce one. . . . . no1 wants to dick with a motor that has 5 ft timing chain.

LS1s were used in Camaros, Firebirds, and Corvettes right? How many LS1 powered vehicles were sold that year? I'm guessing that all together it's much more than just the Mustang (and while some trucks and Explorers used the 4.6 also, there was ZERO aftermarket interest from that segment).

Of course, Ford stepped up their ante' in 1999 with the PI (performance improved heads) which were way better than the 96-98 NPI heads. One of the reasons that there hasn't been much of an aftermarket is aside from a little P&P, there's not much that can be improved upon.

Companies aren't willing to invest money in something that will net them little profit for the amount of initial investment in R&D: "Re: Our company XX heads flow 5% more than Ford PI "Stock" heads." Aside from Patriot Stage II heads, there just isn't much room to play with them. I'm not saying they're perfect, but they ARE pretty darned good!

[Detroit Power]

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...tch/index.html

A Mod Is Born

The roots of the Modular movement can be traced back to the late-'80s, to a time when Ford was looking for improved engines for its cars and trucks. While the last pushrod V-8 engines of the mid-'90s provided power and reliability, Ford was looking for a way to improve the overall performance of its engine lineup. This meant smoother-running engines with less noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH), better sealing, lower internal friction, along with increased fuel economy, increased longevity, less maintenance and all without sacrificing power. And let's not forget lower emissions. In addition, Ford engineers wanted an engine family that could share machining procedures and tooling as this would reduce costs.

Marketing also played a larger role in the demise of the 5.0 than you would think. Overhead cam technology was perceived to be more high-tech than pushrods, therefore more marketable. With this in mind, Ford started from scratch with a completely new engine design. The idea was that the basic dimensions could be used to build many different engines and power many different vehicles. Thus, the Modular engine was born.

For starters, Modular blocks are cast from iron (or aluminum in the case of the 1993-01 DOHC engines), and they all feature deep skirting with cross-bolted main caps and lots of webbing. Engine accessories are bolted directly to the engine, which makes for smoother overall operation. All cylinder heads are aluminum and have extra-long head bolts that extend below the cylinder bores into the main cap webs to improve cylinder sealing. Naturally, there are no pushrods, but there are hydraulic roller cam followers that are quiet and require no maintenance.

If there is a downside, it is the lack of displacement. Because of its FWD roots, the tight bore spacing severely limits the size of the piston that can be used in a stock block. Intake manifolds are mounted flat so gaskets aren't squeezed out, reducing the chance of a blown gasket.

[side2000]

sounds like a bunch a crazy ford talk to me. no surprise there.

[Detroit Power]

sounds like a bunch a crazy ford talk to me. no surprise there.

Very insightful. Will read again!

All I'm trying to do is provide some insight to you Chevy guys into the "other" side.

I'm going to google and see if I can find flow data for the modular heads (NPI and PI) versus LS1s. Were there any head variations for LS1s along the way, before they went to the LS2?

[mogs01gt]

You're ignoring the fact that the LSx platform is a much newer platform than the mod motor and has had numerous aftermarket cylinder head choices for YEARS. The SBC and LS1 heads are completely different, so you cannot use the SBC legacy as an arguement for that. The first aftermarket casting LS1 head was available 4 years after the introduction of the platform. The reason the mod motor hasn't had any development is because of the poor market due to lack of performance, demand, and widely accepted FACT that you build mod motors with boost.

Im not ignoring their ability to produce more power. Yes you can use the SBC to compare it to the LSx engines because GM has been improving the SBC for years. The lsx engine was the next step in the evolution of the SBC. As well as the after-market, the evolution of the OHV head was easier to design than a OHC. The last time Ford used a OHC engine on a v8 was in the 60s.

the ls1 head is an entirely different design from the SBC of old, and aftermarket companies sprinted to make a head of their own. it only took a couple years from it's '97 debut for a slew of heads to flood the market by aftermarket companies. 15 years for SOCK heads to show up?. . . .you cant possibly believe that it took 15 years just 'cuz it took that long to produce one. . . . . no1 wants to dick with a motor that has 5 ft timing chain.

So that is why no-one makes parts for the lt5!!!

But that's just it... it cannot be increased in displacement significantly. And there are NO other choices for heads other than Ford. That's the basis of my statement, yet so many want to argue? The mod motor in a nutshell is too big, too heavy, and has no choice to make power other than forced induction. And the LSx is FAAAR cheaper to build than a mod motor, and forced induction aside, the power comparison is a joke.

TFS makes heads for the SOHC and my engine barely weighs 350 pounds fully dressed. No its not stock . You are also ignoring that over 15 years ago, 400hp n/a was a lot of power to get out of a small block. 5.0s werent doing it, the lt1 could once people starting porting the heads properly. Pushing over 350hp n/a on 281 cubic inches with stock parts is pretty damn decent.

[side2000]

yea the lt5 was gm's way of sayin' "we can make dohc motors, but we know better"

[hutch1999]

yea the lt5 was gm's way of sayin' "we can make dohc motors, but we know better"

except mercury marine made it lol

[mogs01gt]

except mercury marine made it lol

LMAO I thought the same thing.

[side2000]

well ill pick my face up off the floor.