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Thread: LS1 vs Old School
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01-05-2008, 02:04 AM #1
LS1 vs Old School
I was looking at some 67-73 Camaros and Firebirds online for sale and I just don't get it.
First you should understand I'm in the process of building a 9 second Camaro that I bought for $7500 with trailer a few years back. When done I'll have a 800HP Beast. Previously, only 650HP.
I actually, like the LS1 Firebird looks and performance stock to stock but the you can buy one for under 10K these days and a restored '68 Camaro is getting over $30K. Seems kinda backwards to me.
You think down the road we'll be able to get $40-50K for our F-Bodies?
I mean what's the draw on the 67-73? No smoging??? That doesn't make sense because people are selling them for 30K with rust and non-matching numbers. So of the so-so restores imo for close to $60K aren't going to be as nice as what I'm going to build for a fraction.
I just don't get it. Enlighten me .....
Oh, for your view pleasure the build I'm on now:
Car 10.23 quarter:
Old motor:
A 327 5spd we were playing with:
New motor and build:
Maybe I'll sell it for a $100K by the time I'm done..... Who knows ???
Guess I should throw in my LS1 for comparision:
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01-05-2008, 04:44 AM #2
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- St. Clair Shores. Michigan
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Navy Blue Metallic- `98 Formula M6 HdTp
Owning an old car is more about reliving past glory and having something that not everyone else has. Yes newer cars do everthing much better but it's not always about that. My personal analogy is that Old cars are Raw and new cars are Refined.
Someday our cars may bring those high dollar prices but not in my lifetime.Craig
Semi Retired Street Racer
2012 Lava Red Mustang GT Coupe Brembo/3.73's
Build Date 3/17/11, Last Lava Red GT
Gone but not forgoten
NBM `98 Formula M6 HdTp
1 of 1 Build Date 3/12/98
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01-05-2008, 04:50 AM #3
Yes are cars will be worth a lot, especially if they are the last Camaro/Firebirds ever built. It doesn't look like they are bringing them back anytime soon and dealerships are already asking $30k+ for low mileage (like 10k) WS6 trans ams. I don't know if they are selling for that much but thats whats being asked.
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01-05-2008, 06:32 AM #4
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01-05-2008, 11:47 AM #5
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01-05-2008, 11:50 AM #6
^ they also aren't rare because they are newer. not many have broken down yet. in 40 years, they will be rare. especially the firehawk.
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01-05-2008, 01:10 PM #7
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
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- Greensboro, NC
- Age
- 40
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- 1,335
Pewter- 2002 Trans Am WS6 M6
You also gotta look at numbers there were alot less 1st and 2nd gens built then 4th gen trans ams or camaros and you dont really have the iconic cars nowadays like you used to in the prime of muscle car mania. Higher numbers and less cars being turned into celebrities like the bandit trans am result in less demand for them. Also my ws6 was 19,900 at 16k miles and that was high for the area that im in unlucky for me i dealt with car max and they wont bargain with you but 30,000 thats a bit excessive there is a 9,567 mile ws6 for sale a couple of towns over from me and they only want 24,000 for it and thats through a car collecter. Another thing to consider is the engines that come in these there were alot of variety back then today everyone of the 4 gens came with the same engine, so you have no rarieties to drive demand either. Best we got is the CETA and not alot people are in love with them.
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01-05-2008, 01:19 PM #8
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Navy Blue Metallic- `98 Formula M6 HdTp
1st and 2nd gen cars are by no means rare hell they made more 2nd gen cars then 3rd and 4th gens combined. 1979 Firebird production was around 250,000 cars. That's more then 3 years of Total late 4th gen production and that was only the Firebirds.
A car is only worth what some idiot is willing to pay. Now what if he's got Millions ? ...................See my point
Barret Jackson has ruined the Hobby for the regular man.
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01-05-2008, 01:27 PM #9
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Greensboro, NC
- Age
- 40
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- 1,335
Pewter- 2002 Trans Am WS6 M6
[QUOTE=9T8W66;1229523]1st and 2nd gen cars are by no means rare hell they made more 2nd gen cars then 3rd and 4th gens combined. 1979 Firebird production was around 250,000 cars. That's more then 3 years of Total late 4th gen production and that was only the Firebirds.QUOTE]
Sorry guess you cant trust everything you read on the net
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01-05-2008, 04:54 PM #10
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01-05-2008, 04:54 PM #11
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
- Posts
- 2,064
yellow- 02 Collector Trans Am
Production figures for the '02 model year
2002 marked the final year of production for the Firebird. Below is a sampling of that final year's production numbers, as well as examples of some of the year's rarest option combinations.
2002 OVERALL PRODUCTION
Firebird coupe 8,423
Firebird convertible 1,498
Formula coupe 901
Trans Am coupe 3,962
Trans Am convertible 998
Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air* 12,212
Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air* 2,696
Total 30,690
* Includes Collector Edition
2002 COLLECTOR EDITION
Collector Edition cpe. w/6-speed manual trans.842
Collector Edition cpe. w/4-speed auto. trans.506
Collector Edition cony. w/6-speed manual trans.554
Collector Edition conv. w/4-speed auto. trans.488
Total 2,390
2002 TRANS AM
Trans Am cpe. w/6-speed manual trans. 1,591
Trans Am cpe. w/4-speed auto. trans. 2,371
Trans Am cony. w/6-speed manual trans. 235
Trans Am conv. w/4-speed auto. trans. 763
Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air, 6-speed trans. 6,828
Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air, 4-speed auto. 5,384
Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air, 6-speed trans. 1,176
Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air, 4-speed auto. 1,520
2002 NHRA PACKAGE (RPO 1SH)
Formula w/6-speed manual trans. 62
Formula w/4-speed auto. trans. 85
Trans Am cpe. w/6-speed manual trans. 136
Trans Am cpe. w/4-speed auto. trans. 189
Trans Am conv. w/5-speed manual trans. 16
Trans Am cony. w/4-speed auto. trans. 46
Total 534
2002 EXTERIOR COLORS (all models)
Arctic White 2,918
Pewter Metallic 4,302
Bright Silver Metallic 3,089
Navy Blue Metallic 3,290
Black 7,572
Maple Red Metallic 867
Collector Yellow 2,390
Sunset Orange Metallic 1,208
Bright Red 5,053
2002 CONVERTIBLE TOP COLORS (all models)
White 137
Black 4,455
Taupe 600
2002 OPTIONS
Firebirds with T-top Hatch Roof (all models)23,648
Hurst shifter (6-speed trans. only) 9,194
12-disc CD changer (all models) 5,934
Traction Control (all models) 16,837
Monsoon stereo 23,964
2002 RARE COMBINATIONS
Trans Am convertibles painted Maple Red Metallic 9
Firebird convertibles built with White top 34
Trans Am convertibles built with White top 11
Formula w/6-speed and chrome 16-in. wheels 170
Ram Air convertible w/6-speed
and Camel leather interior 14
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01-05-2008, 04:55 PM #12
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
- Posts
- 2,064
yellow- 02 Collector Trans Am
A total of 30,690 Firebirds were built for worldwide distribution..
Sold orders (ordered by customer specifically) 4,454
Fleet orders 721
5,192 were Convertible models
23,648 had CC1 Removable Roof Panels
26,391 had FE9 Federal Emissions System
2,018 had NG1 Northeast Emissions System
2,269 had YF5 California Emissions System
20,769 had the LS1 Gen III V8 Engine (67.7%)
9,921 had the L36 3800 Series V6 (32.3%)
16,837 had NW9 Traction Control (54.9%)
5,934 had U1S 12 Disc CD changer (19.3%)
14,908 had the WS6 Ram Air Package (48.6%)
1,500 had the WU6 Firehawk Package (4.9%)
2,391 had the Z15 Collector Package (7.8%)
Convertible Top Colors:
10T White 137 units
41T Black 4,455 units
56T Taupe 600 units
Total Firebird Color Breakdown:
10U White 2,918 9.5%
11U Pewter 4,302 14.0%
13U Silver 3,089 10.1%
28U Dk Blue 3,290 10.7%
41U Black 7,572 24.7%
44U Maple 867 2.8%
54U C/E Yellow 2,391 7.8%
71U S.O.M. 1,208 3.9%
81U Red 5,053 16.5%
Interior Breakdown:
19B Ebony Cloth 7,378 24.0%
192 Ebony Leath 14,832 48.3%
194 C/E Leather 2,391 7.8%
52B Taupe Cloth 1,078 3.5%
522 Taupe Leather 2,230 7.3%
FIREBIRD V6 COUPE 8,423 units (11.6% of production)
1,000 units had MM5 Manual transmission (11.9%)
7,423 units had MX0 Automatic Transmission (88.1%)
2,567 units had NW9 Traction control (30.5%)
7,375 had FE9 Emissions (87.6%)
425 had NG1 Emissions (5.0%)
619 had YF5 Emissions (7.3%)
6,573 had CC1 Removable Roof Panels (78%)
2,056 had Y87 Performance package (24.4%)
10U 982 units
11U 1,470 units
13U 1,188 units
28U 946 units
44U 415 units
41U 1,545 units
71U 372 units
81U 1,505 units
V6 Convertible 1,498 units (2.1% of production)
All had MX0 Automatic Transmission
401 had NW9 Traction Control
1,233 had FE9 Emissions
66 had NG1 Emissions
199 had YF5 Emissions
34 had 10T white conv. top
1,268 had 41T black conv. top
196 had 56T Taupe conv. top
10U 289 units
11U 294 units
13U 102 units
28U 88 units
41U 114 units
44U 213 units
71U 28 units
81U 370 units
FORMULA COUPE 901 UNITS 1.2% OF PRODUCTION
409 units had MN6 6-speed transmission
492 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
473 units had NW9 Traction Control
729 had FE9 Emissions
95 had NG1 Emissions
76 had YF5 Emissions
167 had WU6 Firehawk Package
10U 70 Units
11U 124 units
13U 90 units
28U 142 units
41U 244 units
44U 42 units
71U 51 units
81U 138 units
TRANS AM COUPE 3,962 5.5% OF PRODUCTION
1,591 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
2,371 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
2,732 units had NW9 Traction Control
3,345 units had FE9 Emissions
273 units had NG1 Emissions
344 units had YF5 Emissions
1,131 units had WU6 Firehawk Package
10U 343 units
11U 408 units
13U 408 units
28U 474 units
41U 1,215 units
44U 145 units
71U 135 units
81U 834 units
TRANS AM CONVERTIBLE 998 UNITS (1.4% OF PRODUCTION)
235 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
763 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
578 units had NW9 Traction control
858 units had FE9 Emissions
71 units had NG1 Emissions
67 units had YF5 Emissions
202 units had WU6 Firehawk Package
36 units had 10T white convert. Top
777 units had 41T black convert. Top
185 units had 56T Taupe convert. Top
10U 84 units
11U 246 units
13U 58 units
28U 109 units
41U 261 units
44U 52 units
71U 26 units
81U 162 units
WS6 RAM AIR COUPES 12,212 UNITS (16.9% OF PRODUCTION)
6,828 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
5,384 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
8,115 units had NW9 Traction Control
10,601 had FE9 Emissions
833 had NG1 Emissions
775 had YF5 Emissions
1,349 units were Z15 Collector Editions
10U 986 units
11U 1,585 units
13U 1,112 units
28U 1,327 units
41U 3,630 units
54U (C/E) 1,349 units
71U 525 units
81U 1,698 units
WS6 RAM AIR CONVERTIBLES 2,696 UNITS (3.7% OF PRODUCTION)
1,176 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
1,520 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
1,971 units had NW9 Traction Control
2,250 had FE9 Emissions
255 had NG1 Emissions
189 had YF5 Emissions
1,042 were Z15 Collector Editions
67 units had 10T white conv. top
2,410 units had 41T Black conv. top
219 units had 56T Taupe conv. top
10U 164 units
11U 175 units
13U 131 units
28U 204 units
41U 563 units
54U (C/E) 1,042 units
71U 71 units
81U 346 units
WS6 RAM AIR COUPE WITH 6-SPEED MANUAL
10U 454 units
11U 963 units
13U 613 units
28U 738 units
41U 2,066 units
54U 842 units
71U 304 units
81U 848 units
WS6 RAM AIR COUPE WITH AUTOMATIC
10U 532 units
11U 622 units
13U 499 units
28U 589 units
41U 1,564 units
54U 507 units
71U 221 units
81U 850 units
WS6 RAM AIR CONVERTIBLE WITH 6-SPEED
10U 56 units
11U 71 units
13U 51 units
28U 74 units
41U 221 units
54U 554 units
71U 30 units
81U 119 units
WS6 RAM AIR CONVERTIBLE WITH AUTOMATIC
10U 108 units
11U 104 units
13U 80 units
28U 130 units
41U 342 units
54U 488 units
71U 41 units
81U 227 units
FIREHAWK COUPE WITH 6-SPEED MANUAL TRANS
10U 60 units
11U 54 units
13U 84 units
28U 127 units
41U 348 units
71U 60 units
81U 150 units
FIREHAWK COUPE WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
10U 28 units
11U 49 units
13U 40 units
28U 76 units
41U 121 units
71U 25 units
81U 76 units
FIREHAWK CONVERTIBLE WITH 6-SPEED MANUAL
10U 8 units
11U 9 units
13U 6 units
28U 23 units
41U 45 units
71U 11 units
81U 26 units
FIREHAWK CONVERTIBLE WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
10U 8 units
11U 5 units
13U 1 unit
28U 17 units
41U 26 units
71U 4 units
81U 13 units
taken from http://www.f-bodyhideout.com/build_c...2_firebird.htm and http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpo...72&postcount=6
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01-05-2008, 05:38 PM #13
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01-05-2008, 05:49 PM #14
Great info ... I'll be analyzing this for weeks. ;-)
There are some great ideas a comments. I just can't see buying a 1st or 2nd Gen for more than $15K. The only exception to that would be a original car with 25K- 50K miles
I might pay up to 30K for something like that. That would be my limit
This is coming from a guy that bought a complete 10 sec Camaro in used and unrusted condition for $6500 + $1000 Trailer.
Keep the opinions coming I'm sure there is more I haven't considered. I would like to be able to justify a $60K rebuilt race car with 800HP before I try to sell mine in two or three years after I'm done playing with it.
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01-05-2008, 06:50 PM #15
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black- 2000 nhra edition formula
are they kissing the people before they blow there load all over their face?
who in there right fuckin mind is going to pay 30k for a 5 year old used f-body.
i need to find me an idiot that will buy my formula for that kinda of money. id sell it in a heartbeat and grab me a low miles 02-03 Z06 for 30k2000 nhra edition formula
a few bolt ons, 379 rwhp
11.96 @113.25
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01-06-2008, 01:09 PM #16
I paid $27K, for my '01 WS6 w/ 4K mi on it. Car was in MINTY FRESH condition. I was considering the vette's, but I wanted something I didn't see a million times in a summer.
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01-06-2008, 01:18 PM #17
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- Oct 2006
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Navy Blue Metallic- `98 Formula M6 HdTp
I'm sorry I was off a little I was thinking `69 Camaro production my mistake.
Total Firebird production for 1979 was 211,454 and 117,108 of those were Trans Am's
Hers a list of `67-`81 Firebird production numbers
http://www.yearone.com/updatedsingle...rebirdprod.aspLast edited by 9T8W66; 01-06-2008 at 01:31 PM.
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01-09-2008, 05:01 AM #18
I love my 98 Trans am, but Ive also owned many older cars. 68 Chevelle, 64 Impala ss, 70 Monte Carlo. All are fun to drive, but I would much rather take the trans am on a long ride. Also a big difference between the old cars and the new, when I pull up in my trans am, people are like nice car, very sexy. Pull up in an old car and a crowd gathers.
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01-09-2008, 05:12 AM #19
I love my 98 Trans am, but Ive also owned many older cars. 68 Chevelle, 64 Impala ss, 70 Monte Carlo. All are fun to drive, but I would much rather take the trans am on a long ride. Also a big difference between the old cars and the new, when I pull up in my trans am, people are like nice car, very sexy. Pull up in an old car and a crowd gathers.
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01-09-2008, 07:25 AM #20
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
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- Lakewood, California
- Posts
- 779
Red/Silver/Black/Red- TA-G8-Expe-L200-Camaro
TA for Less.................
That's right man!!!! I have a Red Immaculate 11k mile 2001 Trans Am sitting in the garage that has never been out in the rain with a bottom side that is cleaner than a newborn that I highly doubt anyone would pay over $18,000 for. I probably put less than 1k on it or even less than that. My biggest fear is future engine problem from not running the vehicle enough. Sitting vehicle are not healthy.
Men! Other than that... no way over $20k because at that price, why would a person not go for a new 2010 SS Camaro with 500 hp stock that is brand spanking new?
Enough said, you know what the deal is...............
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