What do you guys think the best heads are??
I know the AFR 205/225cc are a favorite but their expensive!!!
How are the Patriot LQ9 6.0 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/72cc)??
Equil to the AFR's??
Is there anything better of these 2 for performance or price??
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What do you guys think the best heads are??
I know the AFR 205/225cc are a favorite but their expensive!!!
How are the Patriot LQ9 6.0 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/72cc)??
Equil to the AFR's??
Is there anything better of these 2 for performance or price??
Simply put.....
You get what you pay for.
Point well taken.... :beer3:
I am getting some brand new Dart Pro LS1 heads. They flow 315 cfm with a 580 lift, I expect to see 450-470 RWHP with a 220/224 cam. For only $1750 for the head/cam package I think it's a screaming steal.
Where could you get the dart pro heads??? And your sure they can produce 450-475 RWHP with a medium sized cam like that even with a nice tune??
Id just hate pay $2100 for AFR 205cc complete heads For 30-40RWHP doesn't make me to itchy to go buy complete heads that are that expensive so i want GOOD heads that won't kill my pocket!!
I went with Patriot LS6 Stage 2 Heads with the 59cc Chamber for my SLP 51013 Cam. This cam was used in a 2004 book with the same mods as my car but with the ARF heads, I actually gained 7 HP and 5 TQ more using the Patriots. Like SLP you only buy the name
Well thats nice to hear knowing that i dont need to pay an arm and a leg to get the performance im looking for!!!
So your saying that if i bought the Patriot LQ9 6.0 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/72cc) that i should have equil if not better performance then the AFRs for 1/2 the price??Quote:
Originally Posted by MadSeason
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
Then pay 2350 for the 225cc heads. I know a place that charges that much and has free shipping.
What kind of Cam and induction are you planning on using? If you're not going with a supercharger I'd suggest something else if you get 92-93 octain in your area
As far as a cam goes i am getting the TR 236/230 .602/.575 112 LSA which is obviously a BIG cam... Going to stay N/A for now and attempt to squeeze as close to 500RWHP as i can without sacrificing my DD too much then in the future (probably 1 1/2 from now) go with a stage 2 Twin Turbo setup from HP...
They are good for 300 cfm with a 580 lift cam. They should easily produce 100 to 125 RWHP with a 220/224 cam. I already have 348 RWTQ, 375 RWTQ from a basically stock LS1. My only mods are K&N FIPK II, smoothe bellows, a Corsa exhaust and a dyno tune. Add 100-125 RWHP for the head/cam package and voila 450-470 RWHP. The Dart heads are less expensive than Patriot heads and will produce as much if not more hp than they can. They come in 205cc and 225cc intake sizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOMSS
You also said that for these heads and a cam package it will cost $1750!!! Are these heads are complete?? Where could i buy a set of these heads and could i use the 225cc on a street car and not destroy my daily driving??
you only really want to go with 225cc heads if you have more cubes or plan on doing FI
Well i plan on going FI but not for atleast another year or 2... I figured the 225cc intake would be too much for a N/A stock bottom end car. The gain b/t 225-205 isn't alot any way so i'm really not concerned about it. What i am curious though is the LQ9 6.0 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/72cc) heads from ls1speed.com are $1195...is that the price for these heads complete or is that just for the heads them self with no other parts??
Finally, how good are these heads?
Are there any better for around this price?
And how much HP should i gain with these head, a nice size cam and a tune??
Good choice then, they come with just the patriot gold springs. check out our sponser EPP, they have a blown T/A running those heads, same price, and they don't have to ship across indiana to get to you
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
First off....stock cubes I would recommend nothing more than Stage 2.
Also, with those 6.0 heads you will lose some compression.
And yes, those Patriot heads are complete. Good looking heads too.
Like I said earlier....you basicly get what you pay for. The AFR's are worth every penny. I wish I had all those pennies for them.
http://home.comcast.net/~mrluos/Swap099.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~mrluos/Swap098.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~mrluos/Swap100.JPG
I'm putting down over 600RWTQ in my 04 Goat with Patriot Stage II's and a Comp Cam 588 lift......and a few other things.....I swear by the Patriot quality and performance....
But he's getting a S/C in the future so the compression loss will help that later on. AFR's are just a name, you can find matched performance for less elsewhere. Because of the way patriot produces there products is what makes them less, not because it's any less quality. I gained 7 HP and 5 TQ over AFR's with my patriots and didn't spend 120000 pennies to get a same result. The flow sheet I got on my heads is also close to that of AFR, a few single digits under in a few catagories, but flow numbers aren't everything. If the most expensive part is always the best then why do people shop around?
:werd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
I think my Patriots look great and the customer service can't be beat.
And flow numbers are nowhere near everything. AFR's flow about the same with MUCH less distortion than the Patriots. The AFR's also flow much better under peak lift.
Not going to argue about it. It always happens.
I will defend Patriot as the best bang for buck heads.
I will defend AFR for having one of the top LSx heads.
What about Dart heads??? Anyone heard anything on on these heads?
Also is it true that patroit heads are 50lbs extra weight on the engine?
600RWTQ!!:hitit: What other supporting mods do you have?? It's gotta be forced induction... How much HP is it putting to the ground and how's the cars drivability??Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
P.S. Are the patriot heads heavy? Heard they were iron not aluminum..
LQ9 heads are 6.0 truck heads, they are aluminum. There is a good reason AFR heads are expensive, their design and quality out of the box is unmatched. They can be further ported, blended and polished and most importantly they have a 3/4" deck hight that makes them very strong and that's a real plus for power adders.
I thought all the Gen III heads were aluminum.
Shit son...cams...valves...Shaner TB..LSX intake..punched...KN CAI.....LT headers....and a 100 shot...tons of frame and drivetrain mods....going 150 this weekend...:) Drives like a girl who just got laid really good...that is why I went nitrous and not FI.....turn it on and turn it off....she be a bad bitch...did you vote for Hillary?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
Ok in seeing that the patriot heads are alot heavier then stock (which im not sure if i want) anyone ever hear of dart heads??
My Patriot heads felt like the same weight as the stockers.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
They are aluminum.
And I believe ALL Gen III heads are also aluminum.
It is the block that is iron on the truck motors.
Heavier? Patriot heads begin life just like the stockers......then Patriot machines them to their specs.....what are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
Somebody told me that patriot heads were made from cast iron rather then aliminum... I thought it was true considering it was from a reputiable person (apperantly the dickhead was wrong)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
So basically what your saying is that the patriot heads aren't 50lbs heavier then stock and are made from aluminum??
Here are the Dart flow numbers:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
205cc Head
.200 156 109
.300 215 154
.400 258 187
.500 290 205
.550 296 210
225cc Head
.200 144 109
.300 202 154
.400 254 187
.500 290 205
.550 301 210
.600 313 214
Yes Patriot heads are aluminum...
Also flow numbers are great, but there are more factors that come in to play that help heads make power that you can't see without a dyno.
Well some nice flow numbers but i'm guessing no dyno yet...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric@VictoryRacing
Yea i gotch was just wondering because i DONT want to add extra weight to my car (thats the last thing i want) but aslong as its a good head that will give close HP gains to the AFRs then i think im sold!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHawk T/A
Dart Pro LS1 heads are really well made and have the potential to make big power out of the box. I have seen a Dart h/c packages going for only $1700 complete ready to bolt on.
All AFRs are just plain over priced.
If you consider 25 RWHP close.....Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
AFR's might be pricey. IF they are overpriced it isn't by much. I would consider them worth the money.
Let me put it this way...
On my 11:1 compression 402 I plan on hitting 500 RWHP. Patriot Stage 3 LS6 heads.
IF I were to run the AFR 225's I would be looking for more like 535-540 RWHP.
i see what you mean i guess their worth the extra $$$... And no 25RWHP isnt close thats alot to me.... I dont know i wanna break 500RWHP N/A also and i figured the patriots could get me there for alot cheaper then the AFRs and with the extra money go for other mods.
Guess i'll go with the patriot heads stage 3 is too big for a stock bottom end car correct? So i guess the stage 2 ls6 6.0 is the better choice?
not to big if you're running a supercharger
No not getting a supercharger... Going all N/A for now then down the road gettin Twin Turbo but for now just a mild/wild cam and heads thats why i'm trying to decide which heads are best....
the ls6 stage 2's are the better choice then, i got the 59cc for 11:1 compression, if premium gas by you is watered down or not readily avaliable go for the 64cc
I can get 93 octane here and 94 also. If i really wanted to go crazy there is a gas station around me that sells 100+ octane
Based on the premium gas being availible which heads should i get???Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
lol the afr heads are the best heads out there. you my spend more but y put onther heads on.and then wish you got the afr heads when somone beats you by a car or so.see what i mean
the 59cc heads from patriot ls6 with stage 2 ls6.... the compression will make up for any single digit flow numbers the afr's will beat you at any lift. my car out performed afr heads with 63cc with the same mods and same cam because they are at 10.7 compression and sacrificed some torque. I will look up the exact difference here shortly... 1200 more bucks wouldn't put me ahead of the competition with afr heads running on the same mods... but ya know what that can go towards an LSX 90mm fast and nick william TB and pick up even more hp on my setup.
All of the Following are Identical Mods to Both Cars. The two cars are my 00 Firehawk and a 01 SS
SLP 51013 Cam 234/228- degree cam with .576/.571 lift 113 centerline 112 LSA
1.7 comp cams roller rockers
UD Pulley
ls6 intake
ported and polished stock tb
k&n lids
carbon fiber driveshafts
hawk "hooker long tubes and cat back" ORY
SS "SLP long tubes and hooker catback" ORY
Both M-6 with Stock 3.43 gears
Hawk has 11:1 compression with the Patriot Stage 2 LS6 Heads, 59cc 2.02/1.57
SS has 10.7 compression with AFR's 2.02/1.575 63.5cc
The Results on the Same Dyno
Hawk 415 RWHP 391 RWTQ SAE Corrected
SS 398 RWHP 390 RWTQ SAE Corrected
It should also be noted the SS Ran 100% 94 Octain Gas while being dyno tuned
The Firehawk Ran with 93 Octain with 10% Ethanol
The SS also had AC Compressior and Power Steering Removed
Finally... Cost of AFR's $2205
Cost of Patriots $1195
Cost Difference $1,010.00 more for AFR's and 17 Less RWHP and 1 Less TQ even though he removed the AC Compressor and Power Steering
I could of probably gotten even better numbers with 94 octain, no compressor and no power steering. It was also humid and 90 something degrees in the shop when I had it tuned so timing probably could of been advanced further with better conditions netting a few more HP there too.
In conclusion, I win with Patriots and the guy went out to get a 90mm TB and LSX to get a head of me in the end, but with the money I saved getting Patriots I could do that and win the next dyno battle. If the most expensive is always best and that were true, we would have no competition in our economy. Plain and simple, the cost of building Patriots is just cheaper, not because it sacrafices quality or ups the price of their heads a few hundred because they've mastered the flow number war.
Sarge or EPP, if you get around to reading this my confusion on if I really had those heads was cleared up. Patriot had been swamped with machining some new ones so they took some off the shelf that were for a private customer without the engraving
Finally AFR was :Owned: by MadSeason
check out cartek heads. I bought the stage 3 heads with the stage 2 cam. Looking to get my car into the 11s. Give them a call before you decide.
lol whatever you say dude i work at vincis high permormance.dyno cars all day.the afr is a better head and what if down the road you what a supercharger.10.7 compressoin will kill that.
Excellant review!!! It appears that the patriots are better then the AFRs and well worth the money... I'm glad this holds true and that there are dyno tests to proove it which make it better... Think i'm going to stay with the patriots not only because of the price but because of performance also..Quote:
Originally Posted by MadSeason
So since i'm going to go with the patriots now i have a question or two...
Are they the same weight as stock since their aluminum?
Would the Patriot LQ9 6.0 - STAGE 2 (2.02/1.57/72cc) be a good choice for a N/A car considering its a 6.0 with a pretty wild cam (not insanely wild) and all supporting bolt ons or would another stage of the patriots be better such as Patriot LS6 5.7 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/68cc)? Or am i just getting too big with the heads???
Finally with all supporting bolt ons, gears, decently wild cam plus these heads with a monster tune net me over 500 RWHP??
ok, yes the ls1 and ls6 are same weight as stockers, LQ9, i'm not sure but I would stick with LS6 style heads and vear away from the LQ9's unless you got bigger cubes or FI. Give Gunnar a call over at patriot or shoot him an e-mail. He'll help pick out the best heads for you to match your cam. IMO if you want Nos or N/A on the stock cubes, go with the heads I mentioned earlier. Biggest isn't always best.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
Well if down the road I want a supercharger I'll go with a 9.0 Compression on Patriots LQ9 Heads. BTW I have 11:1 not 10.7 that was the AFR heads I mentioned. I know a SC would kill it but I'm not going that route with this engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRamAir2000
Have you dynoed a car running the same mods with the head manufactures being the only variable? Even for a 1k difference in price I'm sure you wouldn't see anything worth jumping on the AFR bandwagon. The only thing that will shut me up about patriots is if someone experiments with my car, throws AFR's on it as it sits with a before and after dyno, and I don't see a more than a 15-20 HP/TQ difference for 1K I'll be sold
Guys...I am not against the Patriots. At all. They are what I am going to be running.
But only because I couldn't afford the AFR's.
It depends on MANY things. Tune, every car is different, intakes restricting both heads, etc....
Your Hawk made more power. Awesome. The Patriot heads are GOOD heads. You would make even more power if you put on AFR's though.
And something seems up with the SS if it can't make 400 RWHP with heads and a decent sized cam.
If the lower priced heads were better heads, you think AFR would really continue to sell their lower quality heads for damn near double?? Doubt it.
And yes...the Stage 2 should go on the stock cubed motor. The only difference between Patriot Stage II and Stage III is the valve size. Bigger bore for the Stage III.
On the stock cubes I don't think there would be more than a 15-20 RWHP gain with AFR's over the Patriots. Unless you have the best intake and the biggest cam. Then maybe a touch more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
Well im glad everyone is chiming in with their opinions it's really helping me make my decision.... I wouldn't expect patriots to be better then AFRs because obviously the AFRs have a $2100 price tag for a reason but to coem within 10-20RWHP for $1100 cheaper i think their well worth it. I'll have a pretty wild cam in the car... Most likely the TR236/230 .602/.575 112 LSA or going alittle lighter because of drivabliity the TR224/224 .563/.563 112 LSA so i want the heads to mesh well with these types of cams... And because of the price and other mods i could buy with the huge difference in price i guess patriots will most likely be the choise unless someone can proove me otherwise!!
I believe the only reason I won out on that is because I had better compression and that's what I'm going for, High Compression, N/A, on stock cubes. Torque was still basically Dead on the same and that's what wins the races. That 1k would be put to better use else where than with AFR for my application
check these out. http://www.slponline.com/view_product.asp?P=99LS1PV1
thanks jeremy
Stock heads are probably a better choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fastcamarosss11
Hell...knowing SLP they probably ARE stock heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
They look exactly like the stock heads i have on my car... $1400 WOW:wtcslap: little pricey huh!!!
All i know is that i'm going with the Patriots because with the extra 10 that i "MIGHT" from the AFRs for the extra $1100 aint frigen worth it!!!
Now for the FINAL verdict!!!! Which LS6 Patriot heads would be best???
1) Patriot LS6 5.7 - STAGE 2 (2.02/1.57/64cc) or the 59cc version?
2) Patriot LS6 5.7 - STAGE 2 (2.055/1.57/64cc) or the 59cc version?
3) Patriot LS6 5.7 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/68cc) <--- This would be my choice!
I picked the last one because it appears to have the best flow and isn't crazy big like the LQ9's and in seeing that i will be N/A for awhile i think i could be able to squeeze the most HP with the Patriot LS6 5.7 - STAGE 3 (2.08/1.60/68cc) or 64cc..
This will be my final decision so i would appriciate all input, tech information, dyno numbers, possible HP and TQ i'll gain and anything else you might think of!!
knowing slp is stock? hum i have slp heads and cam with ls6 manifol and run 12.59 humm stock, ok i like stock heads then thanks jeremy
I was ripping SLP. I don't know they are stock, I would hope they aren't.
And man....you should be faster with heads and a cam. 12.59 is bolt-on times. SLP just is simply overpriced and the product could be better. Customer service is SERIOUSLY lacking as well.
I went with option #3 myself. Except mine are 62cc.
The intake valve is a little big for stock cubes on the Stage III. I would have probably have gone with the 2.055/1.57 heads for stock cubes.
Either way....good choice. Let us know the results!!
Are you stock cubes?? What would happen if i did the 68cc intake on stock cubes would i actually loose HP??Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
And would the option 3 with the 62cc like your be good and how much gain can be expected?
My car gained 69HP from selection #1 with 59cc along with headers and a tune, granted i had a cam that was being choked at the time alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
I am not stock cubes man. I am working on getting my 402ci back into my car.
I went 62cc to bump up my compression to 11:1. I also have dished pistons giving me much more room to run a larger cam (248/254 629/622 113). My heads were the Stage III 64cc but I had Patriot mill mine .020" making them 62cc. I am also running Cometic .045" head gaskets.
With 68cc heads, stock pistons, and stock head gaskets you are looking at 9.8:1 compression. I think the little compression you lost would be more than made up by adding the heads.
Yea cuz i dont want to get killed by low compression, thats not what i'm looking for. I mean i know the cam i want will fit perfect in there with option 1, 2, or 3 i just dont wanna be choaking the engine.
i dunno if anyone else is running these but i bought GTP stage 2+ heads for mine on top of the TR 230/236 590/598 112 cam i have in there
I talked to mike at TT Perf and he said he wouldnt recommend the Patriot heads..... He said that in the past they had problems and DONT stand no where near the performance of the AFRs is this correct???
The problems they had were fixed over 2 years ago. PP hold their own with AFR, depening on Application one beats the other by a tie going to PP for cost, or AFR by 10-20HP and TQ. if you have a huge cam or bigger cubes. I would stand behind AFR 100% unless you want to spend the extra 1k elsewhere. if I was going all out on a motor AFR, but in my application PP actually outperformed one of AFRs head models. http://edigras.iweb.bsu.edu/headscam.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD
you get what you pay for........and i have heard from a company that sold patriot heads and no longer sell them for whatever reason:Popcorn:
If I get what I pay for, then I should go out and get a new 20k civic with all the options, because it costs more than an ls1 camaro so that makes it better. So now I should be able to blow it away then...Quote:
Originally Posted by stangslayer98
:wtcslap: Quality isn't the highest price on the market. You're just bashin Pats, tell us of this company and give whatever reason
That is a terrible comparison. Brand new car priced against a used car.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadSeason
I am NOT bashing Patriots.
But AFR > Patriot.
At least in the heads, not sure about other things like customer service. I do know that Patriot has some KICKASS customer service. Gunnar helped me a TON with my set.
company is texas speed and performance.....and they stopped selling them because they had quality issues!.....anyone that doubt's me can call them yourselves...dont take my word call'em!!!!
I've heard nothing but good things about patriots except for a minor quality issus from tt performance other then that LOTS of owners of patroit heads will sware but their performance and some have even gain better numbers then AFRs and have given dynos to proove it...Guess it all a matter of opinion..
this is like a year old thread..so what did you do NeeD4SpeeD?
I'm planning to get 205cc AFR and Cam kit within the next 6 months. right now doing the LT H & Y at LG Motorsports in Wiley TX. the AFR head and cam kit would net 110+ rwhp and then some +20 after a pro tune... it would put me into 470rwhp range after that.
can't wait :)
http://www.lgmotorsports.com
Texas Speed has had issue with Patriot heads and Dart heads, me thinks there is something fishy here. The only heads they haven't had issues with are their own and AFR's. Look closer and you will see a pattern here.
what cam, 470 rwhp on a stock bottom end NA, you're dreaming unless thats nothing but a track carQuote:
Originally Posted by djvaly
With an aggressive cam, it is possible to see 470 RWHP with AFR 205cc heads. It's not likely but is possible.
by track car i mean aggressive cam, it's not going to be friendly on the street at all
Didn't want to make a new thread that would start the whole discussion over again.
So I am going to look at the patriots myself... bu if i can find a good deal i will jump on it.
What about these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LS6-P...spagenameZWDVW
Also for any of the LS6 heads are the completely bolt on. Don’t have to get a special gasket for them etc etc.
Say if I bought brand X LS6 heads (with all the fixings IE valves, springs etc etc) for my 99 T/A LS1 I would just have to pull my heads buy a new head gasket and intake manifold gasket and replace the with the new set-up... correct?
------
Also, not caring about what manufacture; can I get some opinions on which heads I should get. I want to be N/A with 400rwhp. I know I have to get a cam as well but I don't know how to pick that one out either. Unfortunately I don't have the technical knowledge needed to make my own decisions yet. I need to get a book... hehe
LG Motorsports offer a cam kit upto 70rwhp gain. even 50 would be nice.
then more after the tune. I plan to keep the ride as a weekend ride after all is installed. Within the next 6-8 months... when the money flows in :)