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some dude at a party last week was trying to tell me that a .22 at ~50 yards would hardly put a man down.......why are people so dumb???
here is a vid of a .22 going through 8 layers of denim and 4" of beef at 300 yards:
.22LR LETHALITY - 300 Yard Ballistics Test - YouTube
There is no doubt that a 22 would penetrate at 50 yards, but there is no knock down power. Like 130 foot pounds? Barring a kill shot, it would just enrage most people.
I would not want to get hit with it at any distance..... More ppl have been killed with a 22 than anything else.... Mostly because of accidents but still something to take quite seriously.....
Sounds like an idiot running his mouth about things he doesn't know.
.22 mag will put them down..;)
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Originally Posted by stevenm357
Also because a lot of mafia hits came from a unregistered or stolen .22 pistol point blank range in the head.
... well, ..i think the opening statement in the OP says it all ... "some dude at a party last week was trying to tell me..."
:rolleyes:
That sounds a little... suspect...Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenm357
More people killed by accident with the .22? More people killed in murders with the .22? More people killed in combat with the .22? More people killed, altogether since the history of firearms with the .22?
this one is great! "what it's like to get shot at"
(can't remember if i posted this before or not)
What's It Like To Get Shot At ? - YouTube
I've heard that what make a .22 lethal more then anything is not the knock down power but a lack of it. It doesnt go through you, it bounces around and just tears shit up. It may not have a kick but the velocity of the bullet it is quite high. I would NOT wanna get hit by a .22 at any distance.
True, if it gets caught inside of you it is gonna bounce around and jack shit up. As for velocity, a .22lr is not that fast, probably 1500fps. Now a .223 which is still a .22 can get up to 3800fps
Fellas,
The "tumble" effect that comes up when talking about wound channels is a bit exaggerated. Almost all single projectiles are fired from a rifled barrel. The purpose of the rifling is to spin the projectile which helps to stabilize its flight. Anything it hits downrange can cause it to become unstable and start to wobble or even tumble. When a bullet strikes an object, the balance/stabilization of the projectile will be affected. Sometimes the velocity and mass of the bullet will overcome this and continue on its original path. Depending on the construction on the bullet - hollow point swaged lead or core bonded round nose, for examples - the bullet will deform to varying degrees. All of those factors will have an effect on the path of the bullet as they change. If a bullet was to mushroom on one side, it could have an effect of the path similar to a man running straight and then grabbing a pole with his right hand, or just reaching out and smacking the pole. Each will have a varying impact on how straight the guy runs.
The heavier the bullet (and the shape/design/diameter, as well) coupled with the velocity at the time of impact, and the density of the matter it strikes, will have a significant value of how straight the projectile penetrates. Once it enters a fleshy area it will usually travel straight until it strikes a harder area, like bone. Depending on the remaining energy in the projectile, it may still travel straight or deflect to a path of lesser resistance. Usually, that is when the bullet tumbles. Being that a .22 short/long/long rifle is at the lower end of the power spectrum, diameter, weight, and bullet hardness, they tend to be more prone to deflection than most other calibers. 5.56 rounds were at one time the subject of a myth that they were designed to tumble. All I can say is that anyone who shoots and loads for accuracy knows that a bullet designed to tumble would be a detriment to useful accuracy of the round. You will NOT make consistent 300 yard hits with such a round. The "tumble" phenomenon comes from the facts mentioned above, not an inherent design.
Back to the .22 LR at 300 yards though. If you can put the round in the right place, it would still be capable of lethality. Definitely not a guarantee, but possible.
Very good point, many people think that the 5.56 round tumbles end over end from the moment it comes out of the barrel like a tiny tomahawk. As you said would greatly affect accuracy of round that is know to be accurate.
its easy to tell when bullets tumble...i have had weapons that did such a thing.
you get profile wholes instead of round ones....if a 5.56 tumbled, you'd get tall skinny holes, pointed on one end, flat on the other.
What DOES happen though, is that some bullets begin to tumble after they become subsonic, the sonic boom disrupts the spin...but that's when you start getting into barrel harmonics, and bullet density uniformity....thats a whole nother topic
Does'nt really matter.
I would'nt wait till you're half way up the street to start shooting, and it is'nt 300 yards or even 50 yards across a room in my house.
I have an over and under .22 mag lr - 16 ga. take a round from either one in my home and you'll be down I don't care if you're a 500 pounder..
@ 300 or 50 yards I'd consider you escaped, even if I was using a .50 cal. because of the questionable back ground.
just my .02
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittro
Most likely you are right you will never be shooting at someone at that distance, but there are always those what if situations.
fuck that...im not lettin the zombies get that close....
and they ARE coming.....
The "ripping up of shit" by a .22 is because it lacks the power to break bone, and instead, follows the bones at the angle it enters the body. Shoot someone in the forehead at an upward angle, and it will travel between the skull and scalp up, over, and finally exit on the back side. Or stop somewhere in the middle.
To the tumbling of the .223, it has everything to do with twist rate. The way I heard it, the Geneva Conventioin requires the use of FMJ. And, so , to inflict damage with a FMJ, you get the bullet to tumble. But, this has an adverse affect on accuracy.
I guess the last thing I'd like to add to the conversation is that the lack of "tumble" or expansion of a projectile in no way doesn't mean it wasn't a lethal hit. I, unfortunately, have seen the results of hits with higher velocity rounds on a human where the entrance and exit wounds were minimal and the person was extremely dead. What appears to be a small hole is actually a wound channel between ingress and egress that turns human flesh/organ into something similar to Jello. An autopsy of some shootings will really surprise you.
So many factors change the lethality of the hit; frontal diameter, hardness, shape, weight, velocity, angle of entry, expansion, clothing, bone, and the list goes on and on.
While I am sure it "can" kill at 300 yds (I had an incarcerated kid who killed his grandfather with a BB gun so shit happens), I'll stick to either my .308 or 5.56 or hell even 7.62x39 for that.
.22 is a very lethal round,dude at the the party was just trying to be billy badass he'd probably piss his pants at the business end of a .22 even at 300 yards.
It would have an advantage over most any other cartridge since it was created in the 1880's and remains one of the most common cartridges in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobynine9
Also we keep using .22 as if that is a type of round. The .22 size is extremely common in ammo, the .223 is a .22, 5.56 is a .22, the 5.7 is considered a .22. There are .22shorts, .22lr, .22 hornet, .22 mag etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by jad628
Seeing insurgents hop back up and run off after being hit with a 5.56 is enough to make you realize that a bigger round is needed. Not doubting that a .22 wouldnt kill a person as well as the added bonus of not having traceable ballistics at close range, but if you really need to put him down like old yeller, i would def suggest a beefier round.
People have gotten up after being hit by bigger rounds as well. Just depends where they get hit and also how long they make it before they bleed out. My dad was shot in the leg with a .45 slug and made it a small distance to phone for help. I have seen deer dropped in one shot with a 5.56.Quote:
Originally Posted by dethinboots
22-250 too. You are 100% correct. A .22 lr at 300 yards......with a perfect shot could be lethal. Some of the other rounds, more than definately are. Even farther than 300 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinergy
No one runs off after the Bradley's 25mm chain gun hit em though :D They just kind become vapor and mix with the atmosphereQuote:
Originally Posted by Zinergy
we'll take turns at 300 yards......you with a .22 and me with a 30-06
25mm is a good size person killer lol
Ok, if we are indoors and I get to go first and use my .22.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0rion
military ball ammo incapcitation is largely attributed to the upset, or "yaw" condition that happens as it passes through the body (basically the center of mass is positioned nearer the base of the bullet, and so the disruption caused by impacting tissue/etc cause it to yaw into a kinetically stable attitude)... there are a number of variables at play here, (geometry, anatomy along path, bullet construction, bullet mass, bullet impact velocity, etc), any of which can result in a dichotomy of effects... w/ 5.56, the bullet must pass through about 12cm of tissue before it begins to yaw, ...which produces a large permananent and temporary cavity - this is what gives it maximum incapciation effect,... in malnourished individuals, i.e. "skinnies", ...this effect may never fully develop if it exits before upsetting...Quote:
Originally Posted by dethinboots
here's one good read by fackler;
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...ary_rifles.pdf
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/.../v2s56w4-1.jpghttp://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...os/v2s56w4.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Zinergy
any other special conditions you need for this miracle shot? :D I was thinking outdoors in a rain storm and we each get a leg shot. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zinergy
I've killed a lot of shit with my 22. Back when I was in high school I carried it around with me everywhere I went. I've made some pretty neat shots over the years. Shot rabbits on the run with it and even shot a grouse out of the air with it. Made some long distance shots with it too. My buddy shot a crow out of a tree once from the truck window. There had to be like a 3 second delay from the time he pulled the trigger until the crow fell.....not sure on the yardage but it was way the hell out there. That all said my 22 is the very last gun I'd grab to kill anything bigger than a squirrel or rabbit out past 50 yards.
People like this are uninformed and should never handle a gun under any conditions. Guns don't kill people, Morons kill people. A .22 @ 150 ft will kill you. It does not have to knock you down, you will fall down as you bleed to death internally.Quote:
Originally Posted by krese
It's no where near a mircale shot as long as there is no wind to blow that tiny slug off course. I have shot .22lr at a 300 yard range that is dug into the ground to limit wind and I was on the paper with fist size groups. I never use my .22 for hunting anything other than small game though. Hunting in WI you usually do not get to shoot at anything over 100 yards away. 30-30 is a great gun for hunting here but I keep wanting to buy a lever action that shoots .44 magnum as my next brush gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0rion
Youve taught me something about my own craft. Sir i applaud youQuote:
Originally Posted by wileyCoyote
Quote:
Originally Posted by dethinboots
I've seen cows vaporized too (at Jack Mtn and Manning Mtn range)
I missed the old days some times
<< Regiment Affiliated with 1st CAV RGT)
I'd also add 9mm to this statement too. Only time I saw one drop immediately was from a head shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by dethinboots
Quote:
Originally Posted by wileyCoyote
Totally agree here.
rifles aren't allowed here at all for big game.....thankfully so. We have some real morons walking the woods during deer season. If they allowed rifles I would probably stop gun hunting deer altogether. Even with the shotgun I fear for my life walking in and out of the woods unless it's completely dark or completely light. I will not walk in or out in low light conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinergy
The last couple of years I've really got into my black powder gun. Took me a few years to get used to it but it's a really fun gun to shoot. It's kinda the same here as far as distance shots.....100 yards is pushing it really in the woods I hunt. Inside 100 yards that black powder gun does fine though.....still pretty accurate at that range and still has plenty of punch.
does your state allow BP hunts after bow but prior to shotgun season?
I like hunting big game with a rifle more than my shotguns. I only use my shotguns for pheasant, ducks and Turkey, trap and sporting clays. I have used my 20 gauge for small game as well. We do have to worry about those IL squatters coming up here and being stupid though. There have been some cases of people being killed or injured from stray bullets but they are extremely few and far between. More people have been injured or killed from someone in there hunting party being careless than stray bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0rion
People BP hunt here as well but I do not. Just not my thing, if I want to go old school I will pull out the bow and camo.
no....our main BP season is retarded. It's after gun season and the first week of Jan. It's 3 days long so some years it'll be like tue-wed-thur or something retarded. Not to mention the herd has been thinned and chased already during shotgun and it's balls cold usually. I carry mine during shotgun season usually which is allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMWS6TA
4 days. And it starts on a Sat.. At least for the last few years it has. I agree though, it's not the best time for it. I do know quite a few who use them during regular season though.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0rion
The other thing I've been trying to understand is why Ohio doesn't allow rifle hunting, as long as they are the same as the pistol rounds. Such as, I use a .44 revolver many times. Why couldn't I use a .44 rifle? I understand not using .22 - 250's and .270's and such, but using a rifle that shoots what is allowed with pistol would make more sense.
Agree, its the same round so why not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
I remember in years past it being right in the middle of the week. They have that early season in October but it's only at a few state forests/parks. I'm busy bow hunting then anyhow. Zach is almost old enough to start doing youth hunts so me and him will be out early this year or next with the gun. I gotta get us a 2 man ladder stand and haul it in there. That's a one trip deal. I'll take it in and hang it and it'll stay there. I'm not wagging a 60+ pound stand in and out every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
Like I say....I'm glad they don't allow rifle hunting. I know down there where I go on opening day it's like world war 3 all around me. The last thing I want is those guys having rifles. They can't see past the end of the barrel....much less what or who is a ridge over from them. A 12 gauge, or even 20 gauge for that matter, does just fine. I like having to get the deer close to me. Makes it more of a challenge. I've put the time in down there and I have a killer spot when I gun hunt. I found a spot a few years ago that's an escape route for about 3-4 different ridges. If anyone shoots anywhere near me the deer run right to me. The last 3-4 deer I've shot there have been between 20-40 yards out.
sure, here is a briefing that illustrates things quite well graphically - it explains an interesting bit of physics that wasn't discussed in the fackler article - the bullet's gyration about its axis during time of flight can influence it's angle-of-attack at impact, which can be a major factor why soldiers see such dramatic differences in incapacitation on combatants under similar engagement conditions... i think you'll find this interesting (as i have) and hope you can share w/ your buds...Quote:
Originally Posted by dethinboots
:usa:
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf