Can't break tires loose

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06-03-2010, 10:26 AM
alucarusz28

Can't break tires loose

Hey guys. I need some expertise. I bought a 2000 camaro two weeks ago and it already had mti air lid, long tube headers, and full exhaust with no cats. As far as I can tell thats it. Its got factory 3.23's in. After cleaning the maf and throttle body and doing a nice tune up I still can't break the tires loose. On my bro's camaro those things will break loose really easy and he's got a 01 with 9.5 tires. I got 8.5's on mine and I still can't break them loose. The funny thing is we did a fifty roll after I did the tune up and I actually beat him some how. (Pretty sure it was the gears). Off the line I'm sure he'd take me. All the mods they did are really good quality but I think they might have done a hand held tune though. Anyone have some input?
06-03-2010, 10:29 AM
Knight

Hand held tune could be the culprit, as they are known to be bad for our cars. Are you an A4 or M6? What tires are you running?
06-03-2010, 11:03 AM
devildogws6

Traction control?
06-03-2010, 12:21 PM
lancesT/A

prolly either the tcs or if you dont have a switch for it then you have tms (torque management system) or something like that
06-03-2010, 12:22 PM
samuraidonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildogws6

Traction control?

this
06-03-2010, 12:42 PM
slimss

Drive it through a puddle of water. Then nail it. That should do it. Sounds like you have an a4 with those gears. Ive got an 02 ss with the a4 and it wont break the tire loose. Unless i power brake it.
06-03-2010, 01:55 PM
JunkyardZ

I ditched the torque management on mine and it helps, I guess, if spinning the tires is the goal but usually the goal is to not spin. Seems like sometimes mine will light em up and sometimes it hooks and launches with little to no spin.
06-03-2010, 03:05 PM
F55c6

Do you have

The traction contol turned on. I know this sound elementary, but i remember test driving a Z and that was the reason I could not spin the tires. The salesman later told me about the switch.
06-03-2010, 03:22 PM
Glue Maker

they all have Torque Managment unless its been tuned out, but yea check the Trac Control because even mine with 2.73 from a stop with the TC off will lite them up
06-03-2010, 03:31 PM
lancesT/A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glue Maker

they all have Torque Managment unless its been tuned out, but yea check the Trac Control because even mine with 2.73 from a stop with the TC off will lite them up

ya they all have tms but not all have a tcs switch which blows cuz then u have to have the tms tuned out
06-03-2010, 07:27 PM
bsteff

Or just buy the cheper tires...mine lights them even when I don't want to....
06-03-2010, 08:08 PM
MNZ28

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

Hey guys. I need some expertise. I bought a 2000 camaro two weeks ago and it already had mti air lid, long tube headers, and full exhaust with no cats. As far as I can tell thats it. Its got factory 3.23's in. After cleaning the maf and throttle body and doing a nice tune up I still can't break the tires loose. On my bro's camaro those things will break loose really easy and he's got a 01 with 9.5 tires. I got 8.5's on mine and I still can't break them loose. The funny thing is we did a fifty roll after I did the tune up and I actually beat him some how. (Pretty sure it was the gears). Off the line I'm sure he'd take me. All the mods they did are really good quality but I think they might have done a hand held tune though. Anyone have some input?

WHOA. Beat me what the fuck is goin on here. You jumped fucker. From a dig I will own you. anyways the asr is off and the car has a full tune up, so with those mods it should be able to easily break stock size tires loose. But basically he cant even chirp em. It still does seem slightly under powered to my 01, I just cant pin point it. The car has not been dynoed or mail order tuned, yet I suspect it has had a handheld messed with it because I cannot see any other reason for this problem. The car runs good now, but mine has wider tires and basically the same mods and I can still spin the fuckers loose no problem.
06-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Y2KPewterSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNZ28

WHOA. Beat me what the fuck is goin on here. You jumped fucker. From a dig I will own you. anyways the asr is off and the car has a full tune up, so with those mods it should be able to easily break stock size tires loose. But basically he cant even chirp em. It still does seem slightly under powered to my 01, I just cant pin point it. The car has not been dynoed or mail order tuned, yet I suspect it has had a handheld messed with it because I cannot see any other reason for this problem. The car runs good now, but mine has wider tires and basically the same mods and I can still spin the fuckers loose no problem.

How about laying off the f word in the tech/vehicle areas ;)
06-03-2010, 08:31 PM
alucarusz28

Haha. No the trac control isn't on because I turn it off every time I start it up. My guess is it has to be the tune. The tires are 8.5's in the back so they should be breaking loose like nothing. Oh and ya I'm and A4. MNZ28 is my bro. No its not the torque management either. I just don't get why even with those mods it should be breaking them loose. It's really fast and it definitely books, but somethings not right and i don't think its something simple. My only guess is something in the tune unless someone can think of anything that is on the ls1's that are pre-2001 maybe?
06-03-2010, 08:37 PM
alucarusz28

Quote:

Originally Posted by slimss

Drive it through a puddle of water. Then nail it. That should do it. Sounds like you have an a4 with those gears. Ive got an 02 ss with the a4 and it wont break the tire loose. Unless i power brake it.

Hahahaha!!! Dude! Thats genius!! Maybe I should just bring a bucket of water with me every where I go and when I wanna show off I'll be like hey guys hold up. And splash it by my back wheels and floor it!! Then all the girls will be like dammmmnnn!! Thats hot. Hahahaha!! Problem solved. Thanks slim. Hhaha.
06-04-2010, 04:25 AM
ChvyCruzen

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

Hahahaha!!! Dude! Thats genius!! Maybe I should just bring a bucket of water with me every where I go and when I wanna show off I'll be like hey guys hold up. And splash it by my back wheels and floor it!! Then all the girls will be like dammmmnnn!! Thats hot. Hahahaha!! Problem solved. Thanks slim. Hhaha.

Add bleach for dramatic smoke effect!! :horse:
06-04-2010, 05:10 AM
Smittro

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

Haha. No the trac control isn't on because I turn it off every time I start it up. My guess is it has to be the tune. The tires are 8.5's in the back so they should be breaking loose like nothing. Oh and ya I'm and A4. MNZ28 is my bro. No its not the torque management either. I just don't get why even with those mods it should be breaking them loose. It's really fast and it definitely books, but somethings not right and i don't think its something simple. My only guess is something in the tune unless someone can think of anything that is on the ls1's that are pre-2001 maybe?

hmmm What's the mileage on her? Even my 3800-II could cut them loose (ASR on) shortly before it would cut out..:dunno: That was before the stickies (NOT drag tires) tho.. Now I can't even cut them loose in a circle with it off.. Tires are just too sticky to spin..
06-04-2010, 05:44 AM
shady milkman

does the car bog ? or does it just not spin the tires? are the tires new ? what type of tires ?

is there any difference in launching etc with the asr on or off..i know people have modded the asr to be off by default ...for all we know you might be turning it on :chuckles:
06-04-2010, 06:16 AM
Smittro

Quote:

Originally Posted by shady milkman

does the car bog ? or does it just not spin the tires? are the tires new ? what type of tires ?

is there any difference in launching etc with the asr on or off..i know people have modded the asr to be off by default ...for all we know you might be turning it on :chuckles:

Yeah somethins' not adding up.. He should be able to smoke them easily..imho
06-04-2010, 08:55 AM
alucarusz28

Quote:

Originally Posted by shady milkman

does the car bog ? or does it just not spin the tires? are the tires new ? what type of tires ?

is there any difference in launching etc with the asr on or off..i know people have modded the asr to be off by default ...for all we know you might be turning it on :chuckles:

No it doesn't bog. When I hit it, it definitely goes. It just basically hooks up and goes. The tires on the back are Dayton ZR P245/50ZR16 exactly. The tires aren't new, but they have a lot of tread left.
06-04-2010, 08:58 AM
alucarusz28

See the thing that sucks is that I have no idea whats been done to the car besides what I can see basically. They took really good care of it, and it has 78,000 miles on it. But obviously somethings not adding up. Like I said it does move but even without a tune with those mods it should be breaking them loose no matter what imo.
06-04-2010, 09:24 AM
Glue Maker

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

Haha. No the trac control isn't on because I turn it off every time I start it up. My guess is it has to be the tune. The tires are 8.5's in the back so they should be breaking loose like nothing. Oh and ya I'm and A4. MNZ28 is my bro. No its not the torque management either. I just don't get why even with those mods it should be breaking them loose. It's really fast and it definitely books, but somethings not right and i don't think its something simple. My only guess is something in the tune unless someone can think of anything that is on the ls1's that are pre-2001 maybe?

Mine is a 00 with no tune so all the TM is still in and as stated I can spin pretty easy. Are your tires soft if so they might grab the road better than mine.
06-04-2010, 08:57 PM
alucarusz28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glue Maker

Mine is a 00 with no tune so all the TM is still in and as stated I can spin pretty easy. Are your tires soft if so they might grab the road better than mine.

Ya I understand that, but mine has quite a few bolt on's and if they tried a hand held tune and started messing with air fuel mixtures or anything like that mine could be really messed up. It runs great especially after the tune up but i thought someone on here might no something I don't. I guess the only way I'll really find out is if I get a good tune and hope for the best.
06-05-2010, 08:54 AM
LimeNine

I wouldn't have purchased my Z28 if it wouldn't have drifted me through a turn during the test drive.

Mine will spin, smoke and drift easily, whenever, wherever I want it to.

FUN TIMES
06-05-2010, 09:02 AM
98Hardtop

A dyno or an ET/MPH should be able to tell you more.
06-05-2010, 10:49 AM
35th-ANV-SS

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

Ya I understand that, but mine has quite a few bolt on's and if they tried a hand held tune and started messing with air fuel mixtures or anything like that mine could be really messed up. It runs great especially after the tune up but i thought someone on here might no something I don't. I guess the only way I'll really find out is if I get a good tune and hope for the best.

If your A/F ratio is off, you will most likely trigger a check engine light. If your car was running rich, you'd smell it and see a lot of black shit in your tailpipes. If it is way lean...you shouldn't be driving it until you get it fixed unless you like detonation and possibly looking into purchasing a new engine.

My car used to SMOKE the tires out of the gate, into 2nd, and into 3rd...then I got suspension mods and some DRs. I get a little chirp now in 2nd and 3rd.
06-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Knight

If someone messed with the transmission settings with that tuner (if even possible), I wonder if that could be affecting performance. I'm not real familiar with how much you can adjust, but it seems as though shift setpoints, pressures, convertor lockup, and other settings can be altered - I could be wrong though. Just a thought - if anyone else has experience with this maybe they could provide insight as to whether this might be an area to check as well.
06-05-2010, 12:21 PM
98Hardtop

It will affect performance, not sure how it does off the line from a dig though.

I know mine was messed with being Frost found that and he saw where the settings were(they were set to shift softer than what GM programmed them to). He made a few changes and he and I went out on the road and it was a whole new car in how it drove and shifted.
06-05-2010, 12:23 PM
35th-ANV-SS

One thing to consider is that if you do remove the Torque Management, this puts more stress on your transmission.
06-05-2010, 05:56 PM
dpinson

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNZ28

WHOA. Beat me what the fuck is goin on here. You jumped fucker. From a dig I will own you. anyways the asr is off and the car has a full tune up, so with those mods it should be able to easily break stock size tires loose. But basically he cant even chirp em. It still does seem slightly under powered to my 01, I just cant pin point it. The car has not been dynoed or mail order tuned, yet I suspect it has had a handheld messed with it because I cannot see any other reason for this problem. The car runs good now, but mine has wider tires and basically the same mods and I can still spin the fuckers loose no problem.

sorry to junk up your thread but how do you plan on smoking him from a dig when all you can do is spin?

spinnin aint winnin

what is the temp out side when trying to spin the tires

on hot days mine will hook
06-05-2010, 09:16 PM
DVrec21

I have ASR on my Z28... its all the same thing though right?? I can just turn my on/off whenever.
06-05-2010, 09:18 PM
35th-ANV-SS

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVrec21

I have ASR on my Z28... its all the same thing though right?? I can just turn my on/off whenever.

Same thing? As in traction control?
06-06-2010, 02:08 AM
Smittro

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVrec21

I have ASR on my Z28... its all the same thing though right?? I can just turn my on/off whenever.

I believe the ls1 torque management system and the ASR are 2 different things.. The ASR is for wheel spin reduction.. It's what causes the "low traction" light when you break traction.. My 3800 has ASR and can be turned off.. Torque management is to help prolong the life of a relatively weak stock drive line if you ask me.. I think torque managment can only be delt with by a tune/tuner... But I could be wrong..
06-06-2010, 03:18 AM
ChvyCruzen

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

No it doesn't bog. When I hit it, it definitely goes. It just basically hooks up and goes. The tires on the back are Dayton ZR P245/50ZR16 exactly. The tires aren't new, but they have a lot of tread left.

I just bought a 01 SS w/ 40k miles and its completely stock except for tires/rims. This is a fully loaded SS (power everything, leather seats, monsoon sound, etc etc) so its a heavier car. I also have Sumotomo 315/40/R17 tires .. I've never tried to break 'em loose with my ASR on but when it is off, I can drift through a corner pretty easy. I get pretty good hook up on straight line take offs so I dont get too much spin there. I would imagine since you're running a smaller tire, you should be able to break 'em loose on a turn, you should even break 'em loose on a straight line take off ... but you dont want that when you're racing - you want hook up. If I were you, I'd get a tune for your PCM ... factory settings are very conservative and hand helds don't work too good. My winter mods for my car is to get a tune, long tubes, ORY, SFC, and drop it an inch. These mods should give my car a better response - especially with a tune.
06-06-2010, 03:59 AM
Sayed_000

I've got an m6 SS with 4.10 ... can't lunch without hearing my tires screaming !
06-07-2010, 06:23 AM
shady milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayed_000

I've got an m6 SS with 4.10 ... can't lunch without hearing my tires screaming !

thats a nice story but has nothing to do with a a4 with 2.72 gears and not spinning :)
06-07-2010, 06:24 AM
shady milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smittro

I believe the ls1 torque management system and the ASR are 2 different things.. The ASR is for wheel spin reduction.. It's what causes the "low traction" light when you break traction.. My 3800 has ASR and can be turned off.. Torque management is to help prolong the life of a relatively weak stock drive line if you ask me.. I think torque managment can only be delt with by a tune/tuner... But I could be wrong..

yes you are correct
06-07-2010, 10:20 AM
MrMasterCraft

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVrec21

I have ASR on my Z28... its all the same thing though right?? I can just turn my on/off whenever.

ASR stands for something slip regulation. Maybe Assisted Slip Regulation? Not sure but it's the same for the Firebird/Formy/TA's TCS (Traction Control System). Torque Management is different...
06-07-2010, 10:22 AM
35th-ANV-SS

Anti-slip regulation
06-07-2010, 03:33 PM
pdiddyz28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChvyCruzen

I just bought a 01 SS w/ 40k miles and its completely stock except for tires/rims. This is a fully loaded SS (power everything, leather seats, monsoon sound, etc etc) so its a heavier car. I also have Sumotomo 315/40/R17 tires .. I've never tried to break 'em loose with my ASR on but when it is off, I can drift through a corner pretty easy. I get pretty good hook up on straight line take offs so I dont get too much spin there. I would imagine since you're running a smaller tire, you should be able to break 'em loose on a turn, you should even break 'em loose on a straight line take off ... but you dont want that when you're racing - you want hook up. If I were you, I'd get a tune for your PCM ... factory settings are very conservative and hand helds don't work too good. My winter mods for my car is to get a tune, long tubes, ORY, SFC, and drop it an inch. These mods should give my car a better response - especially with a tune.

315's....wow, thats got to be a bad-ass sight to see from the back of the car!! What type of rims are you runnin, ZR1's ?
06-08-2010, 11:57 AM
shady milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChvyCruzen

so its a heavier car. I also have Sumotomo 315/40/R17 tires .. I've never tried to break 'em loose with my ASR on but when it is off, I can drift through a corner pretty easy.

of course.... they are sumotomos ..that is why
06-08-2010, 11:24 PM
1986camarojoe

Yea get some sumitomos I could smoke them in my z28 from 30mph roll.
06-08-2010, 11:27 PM
BLK2KSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986camarojoe

Yea get some sumitomos I could smoke them in my z28 from 30mph roll.

:lmao: I used to break mine loose on the interstae with my old lt1 even!
06-09-2010, 12:41 AM
1986camarojoe

Yea they make your car feel much more powerful than what it is. Lol
06-09-2010, 12:49 AM
BLK2KSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986camarojoe

Yea they make your car feel much more powerful than what it is. Lol

for real! I thought that lt1 was a freakin beast till I swapped em for some 555Rs and barely chirpped 2nd :chuckles:
06-09-2010, 12:54 AM
1986camarojoe

Mine is also an automatic. So idk what is wrong with his car.
06-09-2010, 01:19 AM
BLK2KSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986camarojoe

Mine is also an automatic. So idk what is wrong with his car.

yeah me either... maybe a slipping trans :dunno:
06-09-2010, 03:45 AM
Too Fast

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMasterCraft

ASR stands for something slip regulation. Maybe Assisted Slip Regulation? Not sure but it's the same for the Firebird/Formy/TA's TCS (Traction Control System). Torque Management is different...

Stands for Acceleration Slip Regulation. Traction control, glad I don't have that.

Aan AT car with 2.73 gears will usually have a hard time breaking them loose/spinning the tires off the line. Especially if the limited slip diff is in good shape. An easy way to see if you have 2.73 gears, with an AT car, is if you still have the stock driveshaft. A 2.73 car had the steel shaft, the 3.23 cars had an aluminum shaft. My 1998 AT with 2.73 almost never spun them, but I didn't have that car modded. Had to sell that one for the 6 speed.

And torque management is only for when the transmission shifts gears, has nothing to do with starting from a stop.
06-09-2010, 04:35 AM
shady milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLK2KSS

for real! I thought that lt1 was a freakin beast till I swapped em for some 555Rs and barely chirpped 2nd :chuckles:

x2 with 315 555R DRs when they get warm ...it is like catapult feeling everytime i hit a new gear.......(thanks frost for great shifts and no TM)
06-09-2010, 03:29 PM
splitfinger09

Is ASR and TC the same thing?
06-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Too Fast

Quote:

Originally Posted by splitfinger09

Is ASR and TC the same thing?

Yes.
06-09-2010, 05:35 PM
LS666BEAST

I burn the shit out of my tires today a4 style
06-11-2010, 09:47 AM
alucarusz28

Its gotta be the tune. I'm getting a tune by frost this week so I'll see what happens. I ported the throttle body yesterday and that made a nice little difference. Haha. Well when I held the break for like half a second and then floored it my back end was going crazy which made me feel a little better.
Another thing I was wondering is that I might have a different rearend. My bro thought he saw a junkyard marking on it. I have the aluminum driveshaft like Too fast was saying and I have GU5 door code but if they switched out the rear end I might have 2.73. I can't find casting numbers anywhere though. It says 28041414 on my rear end.
06-11-2010, 09:56 AM
jiveass

its your fuel map, its got a nasty hull, I will tune the nos timer and you will run 9s.
06-11-2010, 02:18 PM
Too Fast

Quote:

Originally Posted by alucarusz28

Its gotta be the tune. I'm getting a tune by frost this week so I'll see what happens. I ported the throttle body yesterday and that made a nice little difference. Haha. Well when I held the break for like half a second and then floored it my back end was going crazy which made me feel a little better.
Another thing I was wondering is that I might have a different rearend. My bro thought he saw a junkyard marking on it. I have the aluminum driveshaft like Too fast was saying and I have GU5 door code but if they switched out the rear end I might have 2.73. I can't find casting numbers anywhere though. It says 28041414 on my rear end.

But if they switched the diff, and put a different ratio in, your speedo/odo would be off (it would read too slow if you have a 2.73 and stock was the 3.23). And also your ABS would be freaking out.
06-11-2010, 02:21 PM
konigandy6

Quote:

Originally Posted by needls1again

its your fuel map, its got a nasty hull, I will tune the nos timer and you will run 9s.

As long as you don't have to overnight parts from Japan...
06-12-2010, 04:47 PM
RyanJM

My car is an A4 an bone stock with the 3.23's it could spin the factory 16" size tires from a 25 roll. From a stop I could smoke them till I backed the pedal off so any car that can't has something seriously wrong, I have seen a V6 spin the tires from a stop. With just the Volant, pulleys, tune up, and new muffler at 69k I could spin the 16's all day long. Hell I could spin the 275/35's on 18x10's.
When I installed the headers, LS6 intake, new cat back, and got the car tuned I left the torque management set at factory levels and I could break the 275/35r18's loose like nothing and soon as the tq management was backed off it would slide sideways when it hit second with the Kumho's. Now with the 3.73's and the new BFG KDW's I can still smoke them off the line but only a small spin into second before the tires grab.
06-12-2010, 10:30 PM
alucarusz28

Haha. Well I appreciate everyones comentary about there own cars, no offense but I was looking for a reason why mine won't and everyone keeps posting that theres does. I already know there is something wrong thats why I posted in the first place.
06-12-2010, 11:23 PM
RyanJM

Has to be a tune issue down low your not getting tq but even a handheld shouldn't make it slower than stock although I have never tried a handheld so I'm not sure but I know people who used to before eveyone started doing the proffecional tunes. I would say find someone with a handheld you can borrow and set it back to stock or have a local shop tune it and while there at it they can check to make sure their isn't another underlying problem since even with 2.73's you should spin from a standstill easily.
06-14-2010, 04:51 AM
trans am man 99

Now U can smom em !!!!

unhook your windshield washer hoses & buy one long hose & lead it to the back tires underneath the car. When you want to do a burn out just press the washer button & hang on !!!! You will smoke the tires every time !!! My buddy did the to his studebaker back in the 70 s !!!! really had the girls thinking the car was fast !!!! Fooled alot of guys too !!!!!!!!
06-14-2010, 05:18 AM
35th-ANV-SS

Quote:

Originally Posted by trans am man 99

unhook your windshield washer hoses & buy one long hose & lead it to the back tires underneath the car. When you want to do a burn out just press the washer button & hang on !!!! You will smoke the tires every time !!! My buddy did the to his studebaker back in the 70 s !!!! really had the girls thinking the car was fast !!!! Fooled alot of guys too !!!!!!!!

:haha: :lol:
06-27-2010, 12:03 PM
camaross1

do the opposite, traction control on vs off, kinda like the defrost switch is it on or off
06-27-2010, 01:19 PM
dennis ss

Quote:

Originally Posted by needls1again

its your fuel map, its got a nasty hull, I will tune the nos timer and you will run 9s.

:lmao:
06-27-2010, 03:29 PM
alucarusz28

Ya I don't even care anymore. You know why? I live my life a quarter mile at a time. Everything else doesn't matter. Hahaha!!! Jk. Actually I got a I got my tune from frost about a week ago and it feels WAY better. The tires will spin now, but still not how I think they should but I don't even care anymore cuz it atleast feels how an ls1 should now. One thing I like is that it chrips the tires in 2nd now. Haha. The shift stiffness he put them at is awesome. When you get on it, that fucker shifts perfect. I enjoy driving it alot more then before. So problem solved I guess. Haha. Now all we need to do is post the entire script of fast and the furious. Haha. Maybe I should just trade my camaro back in and get a mustang GTR instead. I hear theyre quick for a rotary piston engine. haha. . . . (If don't get that joke look up mustang gtr on youtube) Do it!!! Well thanks everyone for posting and trying to help out. I appreciate it.
06-28-2010, 05:52 PM
mammoth713

did you check your headlight fluid.. it might have been low?

:lol:
06-28-2010, 08:15 PM
alucarusz28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammoth713

did you check your headlight fluid.. it might have been low?

:lol:

No I didn't. I checked my blinker fluid yesterday though and it was right where it should be. Haha.
06-29-2010, 07:17 AM
dennis ss

Don't forget to check for unicorns shitting in your filters, that will rob you of some horsepower for sure.
06-29-2010, 07:20 AM
konigandy6

I think the OP has had his problem taken care of... and this is quickly turning into shenanigans! :lol:

:lock:

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