TT halted ugh but yay.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

That's not an engine.. It's a god..:lol:

---

agreed... its a beast... most hilarous thing tho, guy on a CBR 600 wanted to "see how it stacked up against a bigger bike" and as he pulled up to race hes like "just incase i do beat you, this isnt a stock 600" so i run him from a roll, and ate his lunch, second time i let him get take off just to run him down, and third time i just played with the throttle to stay next to him and completely destroy his pride.... turns out his not stock "a 14 tooth sproket" lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by suede

agreed... its a beast... most hilarous thing tho, guy on a CBR 600 wanted to "see how it stacked up against a bigger bike" and as he pulled up to race hes like "just incase i do beat you, this isnt a stock 600" so i run him from a roll, and ate his lunch, second time i let him get take off just to run him down, and third time i just played with the throttle to stay next to him and completely destroy his pride.... turns out his not stock "a 14 tooth sproket" lmao

---

Haha My younger brother (Smitty) has a 07? CBR 600rr with a pipe and strait through muffler.. Thing runs sick, I have yet to see a Hya around..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

Haha My younger brother (Smitty) has a 07? CBR 600rr with a pipe and strait through muffler.. Thing runs sick, I have yet to see a Hya around..

---

lol yea if you think that runs..... the busas got a full header and Yoshi carbon fiber exhaust, among some other small things lol complete rape...

There were a pair running at the track a few weeks back -- incredible how fast those bikes are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pajeff02

There were a pair running at the track a few weeks back -- incredible how fast those bikes are.

---

yea the cool thing about it its its heavy enough that it really wont wheelie if you dont want it to, even getting on it hard as long as your not popping the clutch its usually a buttercup, but at the same time if you want it to, i got it to jump up pretty good on the interstate next to the gf's dad in his camaro

After numberous attempts to have a shop build a Muncie m19 and peice something together then fail after fail I finally got a break..

Durring that time I also searched for nearly 2 years to find the right Muncie 5spd to hold my project motor..

Located a brand new (not remaned) muncie 282 non-composite 5spd.. Highly saught after for it's use in drag racing.. After a small amount of bullet proofing here it is.. I won't give a time frame anymore on completion but I can taste it now..:usa:

Have a peek!

We started with the new unit..

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...o1/muncie5.jpg

After getting some internal work from the trany shop..

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...o1/muncie2.jpg
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...o1/muncie3.jpg
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...o1/muncie4.jpg
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...ro1/muncie.jpg

Hope you enjoyed.. Stay tuned, more to come..:firedevil:

Damn...that looks nice. Too bad that paint will be hidden once installed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cammed goat

Damn...that looks nice. Too bad that paint will be hidden once installed.

---

Actually there is so much being changed under the hood and relocated that the unit will be highly visible.. Tho the inside of the bell was done to combat corrosion mostly and you'll never see that part.. These are very light very strong compact pieces really.. ~67 lbs with fluid.. As aposed to the ~90+ lbs 4t60e auto dry.. There is so much stuff packed in the stock w-body engine bay that the auto is actually hard to see even tho it takes up 3x the area the Muncie will... It's going to look like a highly detailed and shinney meat grinder..:lmao:

Very cool Smittro! Can't wait to see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pajeff02

Very cool Smittro! Can't wait to see it.

---

Thank you Jeff! So close! Dare I say, "Carlisle here I come!"? As soon as I deside on a clutch and pick up some other little pieces/odds-ends.. I can moch the craddle then on to fab, and then lower the package in..:fingerscrossed:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pajeff02

Very cool Smittro! Can't wait to see it.

---

What he said. :yup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cammed goat

What he said. :yup:

---

I thank ya!

If this car ends up running 13's I'm going to fly out there and mess with your toolbox.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by c5z28

If this car ends up running 13's I'm going to fly out there and mess with your toolbox.

---

:haha: yeah I got a claw hammer awaitin'..:lol:

13's maybe a stretch for my goals, but early J-bodies have seen 11's with stock Muncie 282 behind them..;) I just had the cases checked for issues, and had the input shaft harded.. The 282 (as does the Muncie 284 5spd, and the m19 4spd fwd) input shaft has 1st gear machined dirrectly into it. With a 3.50:1 lst gear ratio I don't need a bent or twisted input shaft..lol :burnout:

Muncie 282 ratio specs:

1st gear: 3.50:1
2nd gear: 2.05:1
3rd gear: 1.38:1
4th gear: 0.94:1
5th gear: 0.72:1
Reverse: 3.41:1
Final drive ratio: 3.61:1

Slow or not I'm rooting for you. I swear though the foreplay is enough to make most woman say "get on with it already!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by c5z28

Slow or not I'm rooting for you. I swear though the foreplay is enough to make most woman say "get on with it already!"

---

:luvlove: Lol, yeah just getting our ducks in a row is all.. The trany was the linch pin in the whole deal.. So hard to find the exact one I need/wanted.. There's like 20 different trannies that will bolt up to my motor but only 3 worth trying. All are muncie except the lone auto 4t80e. The thing is crazy huge and heavy tho.. I have heard many say that the 4t60e will hold plenty of power.. I will tell you Bullsh*t! There's no stock 4t60e that will hold 7-8k rpms all day.. First it will start to slip in second gear, then it will drop second all together.. Even the HD units are nothing short of a joke.. My stock LQ1 custom bolt ones and a chip blew the diff out, barfed the passenger CV joint out, then bled to death in my own parking lot.. Doing nothing but a pull to 7k durring 1 stinkin' burnout out!:mad:

Nothing like experience when it comes to one's own money. The gm class I am at has a ton of transmissions laying around. Some I'll never see because they got stored in boxes and hidden somewhere on campus. I might just try and find some of these 4t60e's you're talking about. Might even get to see what your talking about since some of these tranny's are donated for a "reason"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by c5z28

Slow or not I'm rooting for you. I swear though the foreplay is enough to make most woman say "get on with it already!"

---

I honestly don't know how fast it will be except way faster than stock lol ( mid-high 14 low 15's)... I guess I might get high 13's with 350hp or so to the the road being my goal.. But we'll see. I'm shaving weight where I can but have to add some of it back for extra strength to mounts and a power train craddle.. Traction will be my biggest issue if going for ET's..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by c5z28

Nothing like experience when it comes to one's own money. The gm class I am at has a ton of transmissions laying around. Some I'll never see because they got stored in boxes and hidden somewhere on campus. I might just try and find some of these 4t60e's you're talking about. Might even get to see what your talking about since some of these tranny's are donated for a "reason"

---

Can't miss it.. The whole primary is covered by a huge stamped steel (cast aluminum on newer ones) pan/cover thing..lol

As soon as you open and pull clutch packs out of it you will see 70-80% of the friction material will be gone.. :yup: If it has much of second gear left I'd be surprised...:yup::yup:

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...DE20VIEW-1.jpg
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...ast20cover.jpg

If it's there it will be easy to spot. Truth be told I have only touched one fwd auto transmission and that was to swap in some busted parts for another class. What era were these used in? Most of the stuff in the shop isn't much older than the late 90's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by c5z28

If it's there it will be easy to spot. Truth be told I have only touched one fwd auto transmission and that was to swap in some busted parts for another class. What era were these used in? Most of the stuff in the shop isn't much older than the late 90's.

---

90-98ish.. then the 4t65e 4t65eHD (more junk lol).. and a few others before all were scrapped for more modern designs..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

90-98ish.. then the 4t65e 4t65eHD (more junk lol).. and a few others before all were scrapped for more modern designs..

---

Very common in obd1 cars..:vodka: from j body to mini van..:lol:

The 4T60-E (and similar 4T65-E) is a series of automatic transmissions from General Motors. Designed for transverse engine configurations, the series includes 4 forward gears. The 4Txx family is an evolution of the original Turbo-Hydramatic 125 transverse automatic introduced in the late 1970s.
The "-E" transmission is electronically controlled and features an automatic overdrive transaxle with an electronically controlled torque converter clutch.
The 4T65 is built at Warren Transmission in Warren, Michigan

The 4T60 was the transitional model from the old Hydramatic (formerly called the 440-T4 aka 4T60) to the new electronically-controlled transverse family. Introduced in 1984 on the 1985 C-bodies, it was enhanced with electronic controls to become the 4T60-E in 1991. By the mid-1990s, the 4T60-E was the transmission of choice in nearly every front-wheel drive GM vehicle. A heavy-duty 4T60-E HD was produced only in 1996 for the supercharged GM 3800 engine. The 4T60-E was phased out in favor of the 4T65 beginning in 1997.
The 4T60-E featured a 245mm torque converter with varying stall speed and gear ratios. Stall speed is the rpm(revolutions per minute) that the converter reaches maximum efficiency and is correlated with the engine and vehicle weight for the best combination of power and efficiency for the vehicle. (For example a '95 Beretta features a 1650rpm stall converter as opposed to '99 Century converter with a stall of 2095rpm.) Gear ratios are remarkable in the 4T60 family in that there are two points in which the transmission can have different gearing (the drive-chain sprockets and the differential, or Final Drive) resulting in up to 12 different available gear ratios. The combined gearing of the two is called the Overall Axle Ratio, and the different ratios allow the use of the transmission in multiple applications based on the engine and vehicle. Please note then that there are up to 12 different versions of the 4T60-E, and they should not be mixed as undesired operation would occur.
Gear ratios:
2.92
1.56
1.00
0.70
2.38

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

The 4T60-E (and similar 4T65-E) is a series of automatic transmissions from General Motors. Designed for transverse engine configurations, the series includes 4 forward gears. The 4Txx family is an evolution of the original Turbo-Hydramatic 125 transverse automatic introduced in the late 1970s.
The "-E" transmission is electronically controlled and features an automatic overdrive transaxle with an electronically controlled torque converter clutch.
The 4T65 is built at Warren Transmission in Warren, Michigan

The 4T60 was the transitional model from the old Hydramatic (formerly called the 440-T4 aka 4T60) to the new electronically-controlled transverse family. Introduced in 1984 on the 1985 C-bodies, it was enhanced with electronic controls to become the 4T60-E in 1991. By the mid-1990s, the 4T60-E was the transmission of choice in nearly every front-wheel drive GM vehicle. A heavy-duty 4T60-E HD was produced only in 1996 for the supercharged GM 3800 engine. The 4T60-E was phased out in favor of the 4T65 beginning in 1997.
The 4T60-E featured a 245mm torque converter with varying stall speed and gear ratios. Stall speed is the rpm(revolutions per minute) that the converter reaches maximum efficiency and is correlated with the engine and vehicle weight for the best combination of power and efficiency for the vehicle. (For example a '95 Beretta features a 1650rpm stall converter as opposed to '99 Century converter with a stall of 2095rpm.) Gear ratios are remarkable in the 4T60 family in that there are two points in which the transmission can have different gearing (the drive-chain sprockets and the differential, or Final Drive) resulting in up to 12 different available gear ratios. The combined gearing of the two is called the Overall Axle Ratio, and the different ratios allow the use of the transmission in multiple applications based on the engine and vehicle. Please note then that there are up to 12 different versions of the 4T60-E, and they should not be mixed as undesired operation would occur.
Gear ratios:
2.92
1.56
1.00
0.70
2.38

---

Great explanation of a huge POS!..:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

I honestly don't know how fast it will be except way faster than stock lol ( mid-high 14 low 15's)... I guess I might get high 13's with 350hp or so to the the road being my goal.. But we'll see. I'm shaving weight where I can but have to add some of it back for extra strength to mounts and a power train craddle.. Traction will be my biggest issue if going for ET's..

---

I went mid 13s with 100 less hp in my heavier 2nd Gen W.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GTP231

I went mid 13s with 100 less hp in my heavier 2nd Gen W.....

---

:werd: I honestly don't know how it would do.. 13's would be ok.. Faster would be better but I'm not sure how much drag racing I'll do.. Prolly just a few times :devil: to see how it does.. Like test and tune stuff.. I can't tune so I'm having a friend whom knows how do the tunning. I figure that's when it will see the most track time.. Then of course to be sure, get her on a dyno..:drivin:

Not gonna have Ben do the tuning?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GTP231

Not gonna have Ben do the tuning?

---

If you're talking about Ben from 60*v6?

Does he do stand alone units with touch screen interface? In SD? I never even thought about askin'..Duh:sillyme:

My buddy tunes (diesel trucks and gas) on the side.. I'll get a free tune and free lessons.. Cuz what I know is very limited but enough to be dangerous..:lol:

What is the closest track to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pajeff02

What is the closest track to you?

---

Keystone, or now called Pittsburgh international raceway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

If you're talking about Ben from 60*v6?

Does he do stand alone units with touch screen interface? In SD? I never even thought about askin'..Duh:sillyme:

My buddy tunes (diesel trucks and gas) on the side.. I'll get a free tune and free lessons.. Cuz what I know is very limited but enough to be dangerous..:lol:

---

Just remember he was burning chips years ago when I had my 94. But yes that Ben

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GTP231

Just remember he was burning chips years ago when I had my 94. But yes that Ben

---

Yep he still burns chips iirc.. He's a great help.. :canada:

Bell does'nt match.. The hunt continues...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smittro

Bell does'nt match.. The hunt continues...

---

Sounds like time for a custom adapter plate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pajeff02

Sounds like time for a custom adapter plate.

---

Oh man Jeff I tell you what, this transmission build up has been one headache after another.. Your idea has crossed my mind.. 4 out of 6 holes line up perfectly 2 others miss and it will put the starter in a odd possion.. What a nightmare... :suicide: The shop knew what engine I planned as well and said nothing about it being the wrong bell.. If I had caught it earlier I could have swapped front cases before sending it to the shop.. Now I have to locate a case half and then send it back to the shop again.. eff me sideways...:brick2:

Ordered 6 cases and 4 transmissions (used) After I get everything in I'll send them all to a shop for a custom trans build from (definetly) a different shop.. Then I'll build a few more myself in my spare time for spare units.. I should have caught this myself but what's done is done now.. It happens I guess.. I can either sell it or send it along with the parts and have the bell/case changed. I'm worried about the trany build now tho so we'll see what the shop says about the parts used in the 282 with the wrong bell..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pajeff02

Sounds like time for a custom adapter plate.

---

This! I've desided since it's a 50/50ish match to go ahead and make an adaptor.. Everything checks out internally. I can't bring myself to using a used case half on a virgin trany.. Like I was sayin' 4 holes line up. Also it just so happens to be the important holes.. I think I can modify the current bell so I can mount the starter as well.. The LQ1 starter is block mounted. Where as the quad motors starter is mounted @ 2 o'clock so I'll be needing to mod the current bell for a block mounted starter.. It's a one off anyway so what the hell eh?

So onward and upward..

More to come! Headers!:D

so if the project has been discontinued here, are you continuing on another site?

Discontinued.

ah. sorry to hear.

Plans changed, went to the F-40 6-speed.

Time to revive this thread and add back some of the past photos and a few new ones. lol

Desided to go with the German build F-40 6-spd instead of trying to manufacture an adaptor for the 282 5-spd Muncie unit.
Bosch 65# injectors, and a few of the older photos.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc347.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc340.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc310.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc373.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...v3zzvc3167.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc346.jpg
I'll get some more photos up eventually as I progress.. Thanks for lookin'..:)

That Muncie for a 4 banger? What is the application of the F40?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GTP231

That Muncie for a 4 banger? What is the application of the F40?

---

The 282 has the quad bell which I was going to make an adaptor for..

The German Getrag F-40 3:55 6-spd, is used in Saab 9-3, 9-5, Opel, Fiat, and Pontiac (2006) 3900 G6 GTP.

It bolts to many engines including, LS4 v8, all 60* v6's, 3800-II's, a few Northstars, and the LQ1, etc.

F-40 6-spd:

Originally a design developed for Fiat, Opel and Saab applications, the F40 (MT2) is a GM Powertrain - Europe six-speed manual transaxle built in Russelsheim, Germany. Its first use in a North American application was the Pontiac G6 for the 2006 model year. It is also used in some Saab 9-3 and 9-5 models.

It is a three-axis design, with first, second, fifth, and sixth gears on an output shaft behind and below the input shaft, and third and fourth gears are on an output shaft in front of and above the input shaft. Both output shaft pinions drive a helical gear with a conventional differential. The clutch is mounted on a dual-mass flywheel to dampen vibrations on whichever output shaft is idle depending upon which gear is selected.

The F40 is cast in aluminum, and weighs 124 pounds (see specs). It has been certified for up to 400 Nm of engine torque.

Triple-cone synchronizers are used on 1^st and 2^nd gears. These synchronizers have three friction surfaces, which increase their ability to transfer the flow of torque more smoothly from one gear to another. Synchronizers act as clutches to speed up or slow down the gearsets that are being shifted to, and greater friction area results in easier shifting for the driver. The 3^rd, 4^th, and reverse synchronizers are double-cone, while the 5^th and 6^th gear synchronizers are single-cone. All of the friction surfaces on the synchronizer rings are sintered bronze. The ratios in the 6-speed are widely spaced for versatile performance and efficiency.

Type:	transverse front wheel drive, six-speed manual transaxle
Engine range:	GM 3.9L V6 ( LZ9 )
Maximum engine torque:	????
Maximum gearbox torque:	????
Gear ratios:	MU9
First:	3.769
Second:	2.040
Third:	1.365
Fourth:	1.048
Fifth:	0.846
Sixth:	0.707
Reverse:	3.538
Final Drive Ratio:	3.55
Maximum validated gross vehicle weight:	???? lb ( ???? kg )
Case material:	aluminum
Center distance:	197 mm
Fluid type:	Castrol BOT 0063
Transmission weight: wet:	56 kg ( 123.5 lb )
Fluid capacity (approximate):	3.1L / 3.27 qt. ( dry )
Power take off:	no
Applications:	Pontiac G6

Forgot there was a manual option on the GTP G6. Though Saab and Fiat use would make me worry :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GTP231

Forgot there was a manual option on the GTP G6. Though Saab and Fiat use would make me worry :p

---

Initially it did, but the actual data on usage in non G6 cars is limited.

And the Saab, Fiat versions are slightly different in gear sets.

The serivce bulletin data for the F-40 suggest the units for the 3900's were built with upgraded internals than the units for Europe.

V8 Archie and the Fiero community is relatively just breaking ground on what the F-40 can actually handle and Archie makes a flywheel for the F-40's use behind LS v8's.

From what I've seen thus far it looks promising, none have broken theirs yet, and the tq/ hp max for the F-40 is above the Muncie 282 and 284's ratings.

As you prolly know the muncie units are highly prized by the Fiero guys.

The F-40 clearly brings a much more stout set of cases (substantially thicker) to the table than the Muncie units and as far fewer outwardly visible casting imperfections than the muncie castings.

Heck the lack of differential problems alone suggest a better design than the Muncie units.

Only time will tell. Untill then,, I'm going to give it a go behind an Twin Turbo LQ1 and see where it leads.

Then hopefully I can bring some actual hard data to the table for others to either follow or stay away from.

Can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs right? :lol:

Here's something that can be noted. Both transaxles use a conventinal differential.

Notice the much heavier design of the diff housing for the F-40 as opposed to the Muncie unit where the housing it tremendously thinner.

Muncie 282:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc350.jpg

F-40:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...0v3zzvc349.jpg

The F-40 also allows for jack shaft support whereas the Muncie does not.

Though this is not mine but a custom unit from another forum.


http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...ros/s6f51b.jpg

The beefier case is something I noticed in that first shot. Hope it treats the garage art well :p

:lol:

Wow looks good. I was tosing the F-40 Idea around for my newly acquired Fiero, but changing to a manual looks more of a PITA than I want to get into. Fortunately I have a while to decide I'll keeps tabs on this though to see how it works out for ya.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slims00ls1z28

Wow looks good. I was tosing the F-40 Idea around for my newly acquired Fiero, but changing to a manual looks more of a PITA than I want to get into. Fortunately I have a while to decide I'll keeps tabs on this though to see how it works out for ya.

---

Thank you!

If it was'nt for you Fiero guys we prolly would'nt see builds like these.

Fiero guys are always trying something different and are waking up after markets where there was previously none.

Yep I want a second ecotec/f40 powered fiero notchie once this one is done for a 40+mpg cruiser. Even batted the ideo of a TDC swap around but found the L67 first, no TDC motors were at the pull a part, and it was the last one with the blower intact. An 8K rpm TDC Fiero would be wicked on autoX. Gotta follow your build and turn it around 180 degrees :goodluck:

Started milling my transaxle and motor mount bushings today from high molecular polycarbonate..

Only 9 more to go.. lol

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...tros/f1s65.jpg

Blank cut from a large block of the poly..

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...ros/6s5fvd.jpg

Later,, these will be bored out for through bolts..

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...os/10f54d6.jpg