Valvoline SynPower officially kicks Mobil 1s A$$

Printable View

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

12-23-2008, 06:21 PM
CompSyn

Valvoline SynPower officially kicks Mobil 1s A$$

Or did they?

Below, some compelling data that may be more than just marketing hype.

You be the judge…

http://www.valvoline.com/synpower-we...er-bottles.gif

http://jobbersworld.com/valvol2.jpg

http://jobbersworld.com/valvol1.jpg

http://jobbersworld.com/valvol3.gif

ASTM D 6891 Sequence IVA Test pdf

http://www.valvoline.com/synpower-we...wer-graph2.gif

http://www.valvoline.com/synpower-we...wer-graph1.gif

Jobbers World Online Brief – Dec. 11, 2008

Jobbers World Online Brief – Dec. 13, 2008

Lube Report – Dec. 17, 2008

This information has been sending some shock waves through out the Internet community. Thought I’d pass it on to all you here on LS1.com. One thing is certain. The synthetic motor oil market is heating up.

CompSyn
12-23-2008, 07:07 PM
karpetcm

I dont know if its any good but i use it on all my cars and ive never had any issues, i used to use Mobil 1 but it burned oil too much with Valvoline i never have that issue and thats the only oil i always will use.
12-23-2008, 11:38 PM
JoshieDoom

Wow. I bet my dad will be glad to here this. Hes been a valvoline fan for years.
12-24-2008, 02:01 AM
Sarge

You have to take a hard look at the test they reference for all their claims. It is not a test that is "embraced" to reflect actual real world wear by the tribology community for sure....it is a test (pass/fail) for GF-4 that test cam lobe wear in a low load/low temp taxi cab type environment. Part of the new SN requirements will be Phos retention etc. Valvoline has made changes to their formula to meet the new SN requirements.... all the others will also. Is it better oil? Nope. Will everybody else make adjustments? Yup. I just love marketing people.....did you notice in the one lil graph that boldly states Valvoline is 4X better than Mobil1 there are no numbers to reference? Just a picture graph. Truth is the numbers are so minuscule it is ridiculous and very misleading. Royal Purple must have loaned Valvoline some of their marketing guys.
12-24-2008, 07:47 AM
AB'sLs1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge

You have to take a hard look at the test they reference for all their claims. It is not a test that is "embraced" to reflect actual real world wear by the tribology community for sure....it is a test (pass/fail) for GF-4 that test cam lobe wear in a low load/low temp taxi cab type environment. Part of the new SN requirements will be Phos retention etc. Valvoline has made changes to their formula to meet the new SN requirements.... all the others will also. Is it better oil? Nope. Will everybody else make adjustments? Yup. I just love marketing people.....did you notice in the one lil graph that bodly states Valvoline is 4X beter than Mobil1 there are no numbers to reference? Just a picture graph. Truth is the numbers are so miniscule it is ridiculaous and very misleading. Royal Purple must have loaned Valvoline some of their marketing guys.

So what do u think Sarge is mobil 1 still one of the best off the shelf oils u can buy or has the formulated valvoline taken its place?
12-24-2008, 09:58 AM
CompSyn

Current ILSAC GF-4/API (SM) standards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge

You have to take a hard look at the test they reference for all their claims. It is not a test that is "embraced" to reflect actual real world wear by the tribology community for sure....it is a test (pass/fail) for GF-4 that test cam lobe wear in a low load/low temp taxi cab type environment. Part of the new SN requirements will be Phos retention etc. Valvoline has made changes to their formula to meet the new SN requirements.... all the others will also. Is it better oil? Nope. Will everybody else make adjustments? Yup. I just love marketing people.....did you notice in the one lil graph that bodly states Valvoline is 4X beter than Mobil1 there are no numbers to reference? Just a picture graph. Truth is the numbers are so miniscule it is ridiculaous and very misleading. Royal Purple must have loaned Valvoline some of their marketing guys.

I agree that you have to be cautious when looking at bold marketing claims likes these from Valvoline. But at the same time, I find it really entertaining to see these two major players in the oil industry war it out.

Also, in all fairness, the dumbed down version of the Valvoline’s IVA wear chart which doesn’t show numbers has a more scientific version with actual numbers shown. That version of the chart is provided in Thomas Smith’s letter from Ashland. Notice how both charts look almost identical even though the one that Joe blow consumer sees has no numbers on it.

Further, as per ILSAC GF-4 and API (SM) with energy conserving requirements as of March 2005, the Sequence IVA test is part of this requirement. The Sequence IVA test has an average cam wear parameter of 90 microns maximum. According to Valvoline’s findings, which have not been officially rebutted by Exxon Mobil, Mobil 1 5W-30 showed cam wear of double that of the current API (SM) maximum, at 180 microns. Notice that Valvoline claims only 20 microns of average cam wear. If these numbers could be verified, Valvoline could in reality say that their SynPower provides 9 X better wear protection than Mobil 1.

Thomas Smith’s letter points out, as of the date of Ashlands testing, Mobil 1 5W-30 did not pass this current API (SM) requirement. Whether or not one deems the Sequence IVA test as one that reflects actual real world conditions is debatable. Never the less, that test is indeed part of current ILSAC GF-4 and API (SM) testing parameters. If a consumer spends their hard earned money on any lubricant that supports the API energy conserving starburst, that lubricant should indeed meet the minimum oil performance standards.

See also ILSAC Performance Category GF-4 Summary pdf.

Finally just to be clear, I’m not advocating the use of Valvoline products as this would be a conflict of interest for me. But having a continued vested interest in the oil industry as a whole, I believe that consumers should be alerted to current industry news of this sort. Time will tell if Valvoline SynPower will be a strong competitor within the oil industry. Recently, UOAs of Valvoline SynPower do show satisfactory wear results. In addition, I would hope that in the light of Exxon Mobil’s record breaking earnings, it would be a company that produces products that at least meet minimum performance requirements.

Exxon Mobil's revenue for 2007 was 404.552 Billion
Exxon Mobil's NET income for 2007 was 40.610 Billion

Ashland's revenue for 2006 was 7.233 Billion
Ashland's NET income for 2006 was 170 Million

CompSyn
12-24-2008, 11:39 AM
Firebirdjones

I have used Valvoline exclusively for 30 years. Since having several flat tappet cam cars in the stable, camshaft wear is a concern for me as of late.
I have used their synthetic in all the 3rd and 4th gens we have had with roller tappets including both current 4th gens.
In the older flat tappet cars I have always used their racing oil brand (non synthetic) that has a high zinc content. With all the talk of Zinc slowly dissappearing or being reduced, even in the racing brands, I switched all cars over to Synthetic about 2 years ago hoping for more protection with no issues on the flat tappet cars so far.
I am also currently using Rotella 15w-40 in one of the older flat tappet cars just for giggles since the diesel oil still has a high content of zinc. As a matter of fact I just broke a flat tappet camshaft in on this stuff with good results so far. Plan to run it in this particular car for a while to see what happens.
I'm not really sold on any one brand of oil, just mainly concerned with zinc.
12-24-2008, 07:09 PM
AB'sLs1

why the concern in zinc??i heard one of my friends talking to me the other day who uses and oil with a high zinc content for his 64 fairlane with a soild lifter cam ...so whats the story with zinc just out of curiosity??
12-24-2008, 08:10 PM
maxwax

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB'sLs1

why the concern in zinc??i heard one of my friends talking to me the other day who uses and oil with a high zinc content for his 64 fairlane with a soild lifter cam ...so whats the story with zinc just out of curiosity??

On todays roller cam engines zinc is not as crucial , but on engines with non roller tappets the zinc is added to oil to harden the camshaft so it wont wear as quickly, but the zinc is harder on emission controlled vehicles and related parts.

When I build an engine I use an oil or oil additive loaded with zinc for break in and then usually change over to a synthetic oil.
12-25-2008, 07:53 AM
AB'sLs1

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxwax

On todays roller cam engines zinc is not as crucial , but on engines with non roller tappets the zinc is added to oil to harden the camshaft so it wont wear as quickly, but the zinc is harder on emission controlled vehicles and related parts.

When I build an engine I use an oil or oil additive loaded with zinc for break in and then usually change over to a synthetic oil.

that makes alot of sense and thats a good break in idea thanks!
12-25-2008, 10:00 AM
Firebirdjones

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB'sLs1

why the concern in zinc??i heard one of my friends talking to me the other day who uses and oil with a high zinc content for his 64 fairlane with a soild lifter cam ...so whats the story with zinc just out of curiosity??

Zincodichromate I believe it's called,,,,is what gives oil it's lubricity or alot of it's lubricating property. Without it flat tappet camshafts have been failing. This is nothing new and has been going on for a couple of years now.
The cam manufactures were the first to bring this to light as all the oil companies were hush hush about it at first.
Now that it's out in the open alot of us old timers are looking for oils with Zinc properties for the flat tappet cam engines. It is still retained in the diesel oils since the regulations on emissions at this time was not applying to the diesel powered vehicles. Now that they are starting to put converters on deisel trucks it's only a matter of time before they attack the zinc content in the diesel oil as well.

I use some form of high zinc content in all my cars as I don't believe it's just relegated to flat tappet only engines. If it's good for them it's good for all. There are many other moving parts that are scuff or metal to metal (non rollerized) such as piston skirts/cylinder walls, etc...GM makes an oil additive called EOS. About $12 for a small bottle.
When I break an engine in, I use high content zinc oil as well as add a bottle of EOS for added protection. You just can't be too carefull anymore.

There are also other oil manufactures out there that are making oil specifically for older muscle cars with high zinc. There is a restoration shop up the street from me that sells it by the case. I'll look up the brand name. It's been around for a little while now and has so far proven to work well. It's actually cheaper to by this oil by the case than to by a case of regular oil and add the EOS to it.
12-25-2008, 10:47 AM
Firebirdjones

Found it. It's made by Hicks oil company and they call it their Muscle Car oil. It has a high Zinc content from what I gather of 1400 ppm.

Also from what I understand from Comp Cams whom I've dealt with for all my custom cam grinds that about 1300 ppm of zinc/phosphorous is a safe margin for a flat tappet camshaft. Many oils are dipping well below this level so I have to be carefull what I buy.

Now from what I have been reading Mobil 1 5w-30 full synthetic has 1300 ppm. Whether true or not I don't know, but if Valvoline is now kicking it's ass as stated in this post,,,,I would think Valvoline would have even more zinc???

Especially since Valvoline is advertising it's synthetic oil as having the all important zinc now,,,yet I cannot find anywhere as to how much.
Zinc is never listed on any bottles of all brands I have looked at as to how much or ppm.
12-25-2008, 01:49 PM
karpetcm

what about oill additives like Zmax can i on my next oil change put in Valvoline Synthetic 10w40 and add a bottle of Zmax to the oil. What does Zmax exactly do i know the basics but how much more Zinc does it have and how benificial is it really
12-25-2008, 05:41 PM
BADBLUE02

Most of the oil you buy off the shelf today only has about 850 ppm of zinc. Since I read about the cutbacks at the oil company a couple of years ago, I started sending the oil out for UOA's. Most came back with bad wear numbers for copper (170-180 ppm). These included both M1 and Valvoline. The latest test was on Quaker State Q 10-30. I was suprised the copper number was down to 79ppm. Still high, but better. I spoke with a rep at QS and was told they have a "secret" ingredient they won't reveal to the public. This time around I'm trying M1 5-40 diesel. The zinc and phos. numbers are supposed to be around 1400 ppm each.
12-25-2008, 06:44 PM
red99camaross

OMG

can this muscle car oil be benificial to my 4th gen ?????
12-25-2008, 07:24 PM
Sarge

Guys I would not get too awfully caught up in this zddp add pack stuff......there are some excellent wear additives these days that we are seeing better results than anything else.....ever.....I will also add many of the cam wear due lack or lowered zddp actually turned out to be shitty metal from Chinese cam folks reselling under brand names here in the USA.....now I agree old school zddp packs work good/better than some SM rated oils due film strength and this has led many on jihad to get the highest levels of zddp they can find...and many manufacturers have jumped on this hysteria....
bottom line is for break in it is good to utilize some heavier zddp add packs.....but after break in....any SM rated oil will deliver great UOA's....
12-25-2008, 07:25 PM
Sarge

Quote:

Originally Posted by BADBLUE02

Most of the oil you buy off the shelf today only has about 850 ppm of zinc. Since I read about the cutbacks at the oil company a couple of years ago, I started sending the oil out for UOA's. Most came back with bad wear numbers for copper (170-180 ppm). These included both M1 and Valvoline. The latest test was on Quaker State Q 10-30. I was suprised the copper number was down to 79ppm. Still high, but better. I spoke with a rep at QS and was told they have a "secret" ingredient they won't reveal to the public. This time around I'm trying M1 5-40 diesel. The zinc and phos. numbers are supposed to be around 1400 ppm each.

On your higher copper UOA's I am curious what your fuel dilution/silicon was.....usually higher copper is a direct sign of poor filtration not oil...
12-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Sarge

Quote:

Originally Posted by karpetcm

what about oill additives like Zmax can i on my next oil change put in Valvoline Synthetic 10w40 and add a bottle of Zmax to the oil. What does Zmax exactly do i know the basics but how much more Zinc does it have and how benificial is it really

Takes money out of your pocket. That's about it.
12-25-2008, 08:21 PM
Firebirdjones

Quote:

Originally Posted by BADBLUE02

This time around I'm trying M1 5-40 diesel. The zinc and phos. numbers are supposed to be around 1400 ppm each.

Yes all the diesel oil is this way for the time being. I have and still use Rotella in one car which has 1400 ppm. My father uses it in his 69 goat as well, even after the new engine was installed with a roller camshaft. Many other muscle car owners I know have switched to it with good results.
12-25-2008, 08:25 PM
Firebirdjones

Quote:

Originally Posted by karpetcm

what about oill additives like Zmax can i on my next oil change put in Valvoline Synthetic 10w40 and add a bottle of Zmax to the oil. What does Zmax exactly do i know the basics but how much more Zinc does it have and how benificial is it really

I have never used Zmax. I have only used GM's EOS which is another zinc package additive. And even then I have only used it on a brand new engine to break in,,,and the oil is only in there for a short time, camshaft break in and maybe a few pulls on the dyno. After that I have always switched to regular oil changes without the EOS and had no problems. Never used it on a regular basis. That would make for expensive oil changes considering there are oils out there with enough PPM of zinc to get the job done without adding any.

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page