Question Frost?

**blackSS01** · 03-05-2010, 09:02 AM

So this spring I'm having my car tuned and had a few questions. Mods are below in sig, but I should also give the information that I need a new MAF (Borrowing a friends for the time being)

1: Is $599 a good price for a SD tune (Dyno is $450)
2: Should I even worry about a SD tune

If I didn't need to buy a new MAF ($150+) I would just do dyno and be done, but reading about the SD it seems like a good choice since I have quite a few mods

Tell me what you think

**blackSS01** · 03-05-2010, 10:45 AM

I guess I should state that I'll be having LS1speed do the tune since they are the closest shop and seem to be a good tuning shop. The last thing I want is a fucked up tune

**Frost** · 03-05-2010, 10:46 AM

I just tuned a very very similar setup to yours two days ago.

If your tuner charges MORE for speed density (and you aren't forced induction) than for full tuning with a MAF, it tells you something about his intent from the beginning... SD implies fueling from a VE table. Your car, when using a MAF, gets fueling data from a VE table AND A MAF. If he isn't hack-tuning the car, he will be calibrating the VE and then MAF. If you are going to run SD, he can stop after VE tuning without having to calibrate the MAF. Clearly, this takes less time. However, if the tuner is going to use any of the indefinite number of 'dyno cheats' to make a nice dyno graph while "tuning" your car, then I could see him charging you more. It would, after all, take him slightly longer to do it right than to hack up things on the dyno to make WOT numbers. A possible exception is that the tuner may be really well organized and have a solid base of VE tables to work from. That would give him a table that he could nearly drop in, check, and move right to MAF tuning.

With all of that said, if it's done correctly in SD, I don't have much use for a MAF on a GenIII car once the stock cam comes out. The inarguable bonus you get with SD is throttle response. These engines are snappier without a MAF.

Contrary to internet legend, mail order tuning is EASIER to get right with SD. 5 cars with the same MAFs will have 5 different curves, but their VE's will all be VERY similar. MAFs age poorly and begin to report low as they get older. VE is constant. I am almost done with a line of SD tunes for bolt-ons cars. These tunes will be setup as a usual mail order, except that with a fully tuned VE, an owner can simply unplug his MAF and see what SD is all about. If he doesn't like it, no big deal, plug the MAF back in. My $$ says that if you get that back to back comparo, it's a no-brainer.

With that said, much of it is still opinion and preference between the two. With SD, you may occasionally have 0.1-0.3 difference in WOT AFR. With a tuned VE and a tuned MAF, you can reduce it slightly farther to generally 0.1ish, but if the AFR is in the right spot for the SD setup, you aren't going to be losing power.

**blackSS01** · 03-05-2010, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Frost

I just tuned a very very similar setup to yours two days ago.

If your tuner charges MORE for speed density (and you aren't forced induction) than for full tuning with a MAF, it tells you something about his intent from the beginning... SD implies fueling from a VE table. Your car, when using a MAF, gets fueling data from a VE table AND A MAF. If he isn't hack-tuning the car, he will be calibrating the VE and then MAF. If you are going to run SD, he can stop after VE tuning without having to calibrate the MAF. Clearly, this takes less time. However, if the tuner is going to use any of the indefinite number of 'dyno cheats' to make a nice dyno graph while "tuning" your car, then I could see him charging you more. It would, after all, take him slightly longer to do it right than to hack up things on the dyno to make WOT numbers. A possible exception is that the tuner may be really well organized and have a solid base of VE tables to work from. That would give him a table that he could nearly drop in, check, and move right to MAF tuning.

With all of that said, if it's done correctly in SD, I don't have much use for a MAF on a GenIII car once the stock cam comes out. The inarguable bonus you get with SD is throttle response. These engines are snappier without a MAF.

Contrary to internet legend, mail order tuning is EASIER to get right with SD. 5 cars with the same MAFs will have 5 different curves, but their VE's will all be VERY similar. MAFs age poorly and begin to report low as they get older. VE is constant. I am almost done with a line of SD tunes for bolt-ons cars. These tunes will be setup as a usual mail order, except that with a fully tuned VE, an owner can simply unplug his MAF and see what SD is all about. If he doesn't like it, no big deal, plug the MAF back in. My $$ says that if you get that back to back comparo, it's a no-brainer.

With that said, much of it is still opinion and preference between the two. With SD, you may occasionally have 0.1-0.3 difference in WOT AFR. With a tuned VE and a tuned MAF, you can reduce it slightly farther to generally 0.1ish, but if the AFR is in the right spot for the SD setup, you aren't going to be losing power.

What you said makes total sense. If its less work then why charge more

I always thought of LS1speed as a decent tuner from people I've talked to. I haven't made an appointment yet til I got feedback. I wish VA wasn't so far away or I'd drive out there for a mini vacation and have you do it

I could use a vacation but don't know if I could afford it

**blackSS01** · 03-05-2010, 11:53 AM

I just mapquested and its a 16 hr drive to your location. How much would you charge for a SD tune since I have a mail order tune if I can come up with trip money and a buddy to make the journey with me?

**blackSS01** · 03-05-2010, 03:51 PM

I found a buddy that would go with me, if you want to PM the price for various reasons, go for it

**Frost** · 03-05-2010, 04:26 PM

Speed Inc will be able to take care of you just fine. As I noted at the end of the first real para above, I am sure they have a nice library of solid VE models to get things started with.

If you came here, complete tuning would run $475-$500 for SD or VE/MAF and you would be credited back $100 off of that for the mail order calibration. I'd be happy to have you, but that's a LONG haul.

**blackSS01** · 03-05-2010, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Frost

Speed Inc will be able to take care of you just fine. As I noted at the end of the first real para above, I am sure they have a nice library of solid VE models to get things started with.

If you came here, complete tuning would run $475-$500 for SD or VE/MAF and you would be credited back $100 off of that for the mail order calibration. I'd be happy to have you, but that's a LONG haul.

I fully understand now