Spun Bearing

**lakmflx** · 12-17-2013, 10:55 AM

Hello all been awhile since ive posted on here but read on here pretty regularly.
A little info on my 02 T/A Ws6. Im the second owner of the car since '07 when i bought it with 68k on the clock.
Car was bought bone stock with only a catback exhaust and a Ls6 intake installed on it. Recently i did an LS7 clutch upgrade at 102k. This car has always been garaged by the first owner and myself and it has also been in a warm climate (1st owner from GA and i live in FL) I drove the car this past Friday and it ran like a champ as it has since i bought it. However, this past Sunday i got in the car and started it(started fine) but once it started my heart sunk cause i pretty much knew what the problem before it was confirmed. When the car started it had a really bad and loud engine knock so i knew it spun a bearing. My question is how could something like this happen just out of nowhere?

All my gauges were fine before this happened and even after the knock all my gauges are still where they should be. I got the oil changed on it yesterday and there was no metal shavings in it at all. So im pretty sure this will need a rebuild. Just to note the car isnt at a shop yet to see how much damage was done to it yet but i will have it towed soon.Now here is where all my questions come into play...

Rebuild Ls1?
Go for a LQ9 block and swap over what is salvageable( if any)
Seen on ebay where a place will rebuild your LS1 for 2900$ and offers a 3 year warranty they even come pick it up and drop it off when done.

Obviously money is an issue and this is my daily driver as well so im looking to get this back on the road as cheaply and reliably as possible. Car sits with 106k on the clock currently.

Any suggestions on what route to take would be greatly appreciated as i know nothing about engine building.
Also have a vid i can post if you guys need to see it.

**lakmflx** · 12-17-2013, 02:58 PM

Ive been thinking about this situation more and more and some more questions...

If a bearing really did go wouldnt i have some kind of oil pressure issue?
Obviously without knowing whats wrong with it for sure its hard to say what i will need.
Lets say for the sake of argument that the motor is toast, i can have a 408 c.i.d from texas speed built for about 4k. The big question id like an answer if at all possible is: how much would it cost to rebuild the LS1?
i know theres alot of variables that come into play since i dont know the condition of the motor yet but if i needed all new valvetrain and my block is good whats a rough estimate to get it back on the road?

***SMWS6TA*** · 12-17-2013, 04:10 PM

I have to wait till I get to a pc to respond to both post. But to answer your question about oil pressure & bearings. Not necessary, mine had high oil pressure till the day I pulled the block. It had spun bearings on 3,6,7,8 plus 2 cracked pistons.

**redbird555** · 12-18-2013, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by lakmflx

Ive been thinking about this situation more and more and some more questions...

If a bearing really did go wouldnt i have some kind of oil pressure issue?
Obviously without knowing whats wrong with it for sure its hard to say what i will need.
Lets say for the sake of argument that the motor is toast, i can have a 408 c.i.d from texas speed built for about 4k. The big question id like an answer if at all possible is: how much would it cost to rebuild the LS1?
i know theres alot of variables that come into play since i dont know the condition of the motor yet but if i needed all new valvetrain and my block is good whats a rough estimate to get it back on the road?

A 408 is going to cost a lot more than 4k by the time you add in a set of good heads, cam, tune intake and related parts to go with it. I'd go more like 6500-7k if you sourced some good used heads. Rebuilding the ls1 probably isnt worth it you would have well over 3k in a complete rebuild if done by someone else and as you know an ls1 can be had rebuild for cheaper than that. Check out thompson motor sports they have good prices and a lot of people are happy with them

**pajeff02** · 12-18-2013, 03:01 AM

Time for a crate engine.

It doesn't seem to happen a lot, but you're not the first (as Scott pointed out) to have this happen.

***SMWS6TA*** · 12-18-2013, 05:40 AM

The other issue with going with a 408 build is they lose a lot of street manners to daily drive. Not saying you can't just won't be economical....

Not sure about the ebay place or rebuilt places.

Crate motors remove a lot of research and guessing that follows. They are almost plug and play. May be your best option, not the cheapest, but better for your needs.

I've been building my 6.0 Liter for almost the last 8 months (reason so long is money...). It's cost so far about $3000 for parts & shop fees. This is with me doing the labor.

I'm a huge fan boy of the LQ4/9 6.0 liter blocks. Very versatile block. In stock form perform slightly better then LS1's (with same cam, heads, intake), can be built up to handle high natural aspired (NA) HP/TQ or even better can handle more boost for force induction (FI) builds over aluminum blocks. They can use cathedral (LS1 style) or rectangular (LS3 style) port heads. What I'm saying is you have a ton of options with a LQ4/9 block.

What you need to know if shopping for LQ4/9's:

LQ4's have dish** pistons and run 9.4:1 compression while LQ9's are flat top** pistons and run 10.5:1 compression.

99'-04' yrs are the prime candidates. The crank is the same as LS1, has a 24x reluctor wheel *, iron block (weighs 80-100lbs more then aluminum blocks), if you get a long block comes with 317 & some have 243 heads.

>99' have a slightly longer crank, so it will need to be swapped out for a LS1 style crank or some transmission work/parts will need to be done/bought.

05' yrs - 58x reluctor wheel*, almost all come with 243 heads.

Notes:

* reluctor wheel - as mention above after 05' GM switch over to a 58x reluctor wheel. You will need to do one of the following to be able to make it work:
1) press off the 58x and press on the 24x wheel.
2) get a 58x to 24x convertor kit. Cost about $500. Only a few places sell it. Cheaper to do 1
3) get a ECM & wire harness that is 58x (if you get a complete long block with the ecm & wire harness expect to pay around $4500-$5000 for all)

** Dish vs Flat pistons - Dish are like a bowl in the piston while flat is just that, flat. Dish are favored for boosted applications with flat are best for NA builds.

There is more info but without knowing what you know or need.....point is ask away. Quite a few of us are in different places of engine builds.

**lakmflx** · 12-18-2013, 12:28 PM

Thank you for the replies.

I will know more about the condition of the motor sometime next week as im going to have it towed to my bro in laws shop. Im estimating i will have around 4-5k to spend come income tax time. A big plus by taking the car to him is that i can pay him in installments for labor which would help tremendously, so my budget for a build will be 4-5k. And yes after more research and digging around a 408 would be out of my price range as you suggested redbird. I have zero knowledge building an engine so really im looking for advice on what to do. Will keep you guys updated as soon as i know more but if anyone else has any ideas or comments please reply. Im trying to put together alot of info of what i will need/swap over to a new block ( if i need one) so please dont hold back.

**lakmflx** · 01-09-2014, 03:02 PM

Ok, so a lil update...

After a little inspection of the shop where the car sits, they were convinced it might have been the flywheel since they said "its more of a tick then knock" and listened with a stethoscope. I heard it myelf and the sound was def the loudest between the bellhousing and where the flywheel sits. Had my fingers crossed it was the flywheel but no dice, they took off the tranny and it checked out fine and torque specs were good on it.

A few days went by and i got a phone call saying "its the engine you need a new one" i asked them how they knew for sure but wasnt given a def answer as far as what they checked to come to that conclusion. I asked them if they pulled the valve covers off to check for a lifter rod or valve they said no cause the sound is coming from the bottom end. Im gonna post a vid of what the car was doing when it first started. Car hasnt been driven since this first started and now just sits at the shop. a few things i want to state tho...

1. when i asked if they pulled the valve covers they said no cause sound is coming from bottom end. I then asked them if they can pull them off and check but they told me they can but i would have to pay for more labor (which im fine with) but i told them not to do it since they arent really familiar with these motors and quoted me something like 2 and a half hours for each side. Im not a mechanic by any means but i know i can pull both sides off in under 2 hours by myself.

2. Im alrdy in for $445 for tranny removal and replacement so i dont want to rack up a huge labor bill for nothing.

3. I didnt really have a choice on a shop but i went with this one as the owner is my nephews god father and hes practically family AND he would take payments from me every week depending what is wrong with the car.

4. Long story short i still dont know what exactly is wrong with the damn car since they need to charge me labor for checking things out but like i said i dont want to rack up a huge labor bill for nothing unless its been fixed.

Here is the video so what do you guys think? more of a tick or knock in your own opinions and what advice can you guys offer if any? (video is good quality but a bit small since i used my phone)

***SMWS6TA*** · 01-09-2014, 04:55 PM

spun bearing......95% sure

You can pull the valve covers but I'm pretty sure it's the bearings

**lakmflx** · 01-09-2014, 05:48 PM

Ok so with that said heres where it gets interesting...

Owner of the shop quoted me around 6k-6.5k for everything BUT this is with a used or rebuilt LS1. Now im not stupid i know its a rip-off since i can go this route http://texas-speed.com/p-114-tsp-383...ort-block.aspx for brand new and just pay him the 1500 he wants for labor to install motor back in the car. my question is if i went the TSP route on the short block will i need anything extra? can i reuse my LS6 intake and heads with this block? should i get anything upgraded with that block from TSP if i order that block? will anything have to be done to the block itself before it can be installed into the car (after heads etc are put on i mean) sorry for all these question but ive no idea on these kind of things. So basically i know im still at around 6k mark between the block and labor to install motor but at least i know the engine will be brand new.

**pajeff02** · 01-09-2014, 05:55 PM

You can swap in an engine for a lot less than that. All of the peripherals can be reused - just need new gaskets, certain bolts that are TTY and can only be used once, and new fluids. This being said, depending upon mileage and condition, it wouldn't hurt to have the heads checked as valves, guides, valve seats, valve seals, springs, rockers and push rods are all subject to wear.

**35th-ANV-SS** · 01-09-2014, 06:37 PM

They sell bearing kits for like $500 also.

Just curious, but why is everyone so quick to replace an entire motor when it has a spun bearing? Several people on here have bought the kit and replaced them. I know they can damage other things as well, but is this not an option?

**pajeff02** · 01-09-2014, 06:57 PM

Depends upon how long it was run and the amount of debris it tossed into the engine -- certainly merits a complete tear down and thorough cleaning before proceeding with repairs. If it junked the crank, I would probably short block it rather than attempt repairs.

**lakmflx** · 01-09-2014, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS

They sell bearing kits for like $500 also.

Just curious, but why is everyone so quick to replace an entire motor when it has a spun bearing? Several people on here have bought the kit and replaced them. I know they can damage other things as well, but is this not an option?

I thought the same thing, but i dont know what condition or damage (if any) has been done. I dont want to spend money on labor only for the shop to tell me im going to need a rebuild. So in short this is why im leaning towards a new 383 short block and just swap over my heads and intake and call it a day and have it back on the road.

**35th-ANV-SS** · 01-09-2014, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by pajeff02

Depends upon how long it was run and the amount of debris it tossed into the engine -- certainly merits a complete tear down and thorough cleaning before proceeding with repairs. If it junked the crank, I would probably short block it rather than attempt repairs.

That's what I figured. I guess if you had time and the know-how to do it yourself, it might be worth while. Otherwise, sounds like replacement is the best choice.

***SMWS6TA*** · 01-09-2014, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by lakmflx

I thought the same thing, but i dont know what condition or damage (if any) has been done. I dont want to spend money on labor only for the shop to tell me im going to need a rebuild. So in short this is why im leaning towards a new 383 short block and just swap over my heads and intake and call it a day and have it back on the road.

You'll need a tune.....

Based on your situation a crate motor might be your best bet.

**lakmflx** · 01-09-2014, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

You'll need a tune.....

Based on your situation a crate motor might be your best bet.

Yea i figured a tune for sure i was just wondering if i would've needed anything else assuming heads intake is still good. I'm really assuming the worst until i know otherwise but like i said, when this first happened car ran perfect then it got parked for 2 days and once i started it up after it sat for 2 days is when it started doing that. I did take it for a spin to see if i had any issues but it drove and shifted perfectly. No hesitation bogging down nothing. Its still strange to me that with only 106k on the clock this happened but what an ya do.

**Firebirdjones** · 01-10-2014, 04:19 AM

Wow, if you took it for a drive too, then you can pretty much guarantee the crank will be junk, and the rod or rods too. In some cases I've found, just the heat generated around a spun bearing (main bearing) will crack the main webbing areas and render the block useless too. Just listening to the video made me cringe when you rev'd the throttle.

In that short amount of time (not to mention taking it for a drive) you can bet that there will be alot of debri passed throughout the engine which starts to destroy other things, so anything you want to use on the next engine (camshaft, heads, lifters etc...) will have to be completely torn down and thoroughly washed.
You'll never get it out of the lifters either unless you pull the retainer and plunger out and flush them really good, even then they could be scorned, and you'll have to check the rollers closely as well as the cam lobes. I generally just call them a sacrafice and get a new set.

Just for giggles, I'd bet if you pull a valve cover you'll find tiny metal flakes laying around, shiny silver in color. Or better yet, drain the oil and cut the filter apart, that will tell the story. You could even send a sample off to have tested if you still aren't sure.

Unfortunately rebuilding engines isn't cheap when done properly. Crate engines aren't necessarily cheap either. You'll be in the thousands either way. Likely the cheapest route to take is to find a used LQ 6.0 from a major chain and drop it in. If you search and are patient, you can still find relatively low mileage examples that sometimes will come with a warranty. I've had good luck with LKQ, who has major retailers throughout the country to search, which then can be delivered to your local LKQ facility. I bought a complete running LQ4 a couple years back with computer, harness, cooling system, air intake, exhaust, etc....for $1200 and it only had 80k miles on it. Came with a replacement warranty if I found anything wrong upon startup.
So this might be one option to check.

**RONS98TA** · 01-10-2014, 04:55 AM

I wouldn't even bother to rebuild that current block. Go with a remand long block (comes with just about everything but intake) and install the intake on that. Get a tune and your pretty much good to go.

**lakmflx** · 01-10-2014, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Wow, if you took it for a drive too, then you can pretty much guarantee the crank will be junk, and the rod or rods too. In some cases I've found, just the heat generated around a spun bearing (main bearing) will crack the main webbing areas and render the block useless too. Just listening to the video made me cringe when you rev'd the throttle.

In that short amount of time (not to mention taking it for a drive) you can bet that there will be alot of debri passed throughout the engine which starts to destroy other things, so anything you want to use on the next engine (camshaft, heads, lifters etc...) will have to be completely torn down and thoroughly washed.
You'll never get it out of the lifters either unless you pull the retainer and plunger out and flush them really good, even then they could be scorned, and you'll have to check the rollers closely as well as the cam lobes. I generally just call them a sacrafice and get a new set.

Just for giggles, I'd bet if you pull a valve cover you'll find tiny metal flakes laying around, shiny silver in color. Or better yet, drain the oil and cut the filter apart, that will tell the story. You could even send a sample off to have tested if you still aren't sure.

Unfortunately rebuilding engines isn't cheap when done properly. Crate engines aren't necessarily cheap either. You'll be in the thousands either way. Likely the cheapest route to take is to find a used LQ 6.0 from a major chain and drop it in. If you search and are patient, you can still find relatively low mileage examples that sometimes will come with a warranty. I've had good luck with LKQ, who has major retailers throughout the country to search, which then can be delivered to your local LKQ facility. I bought a complete running LQ4 a couple years back with computer, harness, cooling system, air intake, exhaust, etc....for $1200 and it only had 80k miles on it. Came with a replacement warranty if I found anything wrong upon startup.
So this might be one option to check.

I didnt have a choice in driving it. The car had to be moved for alternate side of the street parking or i wouldve gotten a ticket. Ive been looking into LKQ and there is a place near me where i can go pick one up but my biggest concern is that you have no way of testing it until its ready to be fired up. I also had to drive the car again to the shop where its sitting now (about a 20 mile drive) and it drove perfectly fine, no loss of power, all gauges were good ticking noise or knock (whichever you want to call it) didnt get worse either its still steady just like in the video. The oil was drained and checked immediately once i started the car (when first heard ticking/knocking) and took it to the gas station not even 1/4 mile down the road and i was told there wasnt any metal in it. So at this point who the hell knows exactly whats wrong. I suppose i can call the shop and have them drain the oil again since i drove it there (about 20 mi) and see if its a different story now.

As i said before it still amazes me that this happened out of nowhere with only 106k on the clock and i never really beat the car as its a DD for me.

Quick edit i know my location says FL but currently im in NYC so they have alternate side of the street parking on certain and days and aside from that even if the car didnt have to be moved that day i was going to move it (park in garage) anyways since snow was coming in as this car has never seen rain or snow.