LS1 tech and member questions

**justincredible099** · 08-30-2009, 07:35 PM

Hello from the land of German aluminum motors.

I hope this is not an intrusion into the domestic aluminum motor gods forums as I know the LS1 has always been a force to be reckoned with. From what I have read the LS1 is an aluminum block and from knowing about domestic dominance in the performance game, I came here to ask for some real in site

Quick back ground on where I'm coming from. I own a B6 S4 (Audi) its an all aluminum 4.2 V8, with no selves and uses nickle cell tech like I believe the LS1 does. Our big brothers in the S4 community have twin turbo 2.7T motors, they think they have the fastest cars ever invented

Every 2.7T audi guy thinks there a genious and ANY/MOTOR but theirs is a POS that is going to fall apart at any sec cause its under built.

So I need a little help if you can. Cause I need advice from the experts, to refute the 2.7T bull sh1t that says aluminum motors are not able to hold any power over 400 crank hp

Does the ls1 have a sleeved block or just straight aluminum with chem coated walls?

What is the Ball park (I know some might argue the exact amount of power) on what the limits of the motor are before needed internal upgrades for strength.

What are some good strength and performance benefits In your opinions with the aluminum blocks (other then weight)
Do you guys have pic's of the motors tore down?

Can you give any incite to a fellow hot rodder that needs AWD and 4 doors?.

As a side note I did drive a CTS V for 2 years and loved it. Just needed AWD

Ive searched for some of these answers and not gotten much. I tried the search on this site and maybe I didn't put in the right words.

**Mr. Luos** · 08-30-2009, 08:29 PM

I have a friend with a honed stock LS1 that was able to make 810 to the wheels.
Stock cubes, forged internals, F1A blower, and meth.

**justincredible099** · 08-30-2009, 08:39 PM

Thanks, this is along the lines of what I'm looking for. First thanks in advance you guys, I'm a moderator on a Audi forum and I know what its like to have other car platforms step in and ask questions. So thanks for ANY help guys

Also a big thanks to Orcus79 for the help in the chat room.

On top of the info, we don't have sleeved blocks our cylinder walls have a chem coating on them. This is one of the areas I but no one else seems to think is an issue. with 5.5mm gap between the Cylinder walls.

We also share the same aluminum block design as our bigger brother the lambo

**mark21742** · 08-31-2009, 02:13 AM

we have pressed in iron sleeves in the LS1 motors (hate to say it, but think Honda).
I thought the Audi's had iron sleeves too, but I've thought wrong before lol.....Ni-cad coated aluminun cylinders in the Audi I take it? I know they have come a long way with trickle down tech from GP/ F1, like a lot of sportbikes.
if anything, to hold more power and be stable you could probably get more high hp reliability by boreing and having iron sleeves pressed in/ machined.
I'm not too up on Audi, but I have friends that have turboed civics holding together with 600+ hp (deck plate and gurdle) spinning 10,000+ rpm

**Too Fast** · 08-31-2009, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by justincredible099

Hello from the land of German aluminum motors.

I hope this is not an intrusion into the domestic aluminum motor gods forums as I know the LS1 has always been a force to be reckoned with. From what I have read the LS1 is an aluminum block and from knowing about domestic dominance in the performance game, I came here to ask for some real in site

Quick back ground on where I'm coming from. I own a B6 S4 (Audi) its an all aluminum 4.2 V8, with no selves and uses nickle cell tech like I believe the LS1 does. Our big brothers in the S4 community have twin turbo 2.7T motors, they think they have the fastest cars ever invented

Every 2.7T audi guy thinks there a genious and ANY/MOTOR but theirs is a POS that is going to fall apart at any sec cause its under built.

So I need a little help if you can. Cause I need advice from the experts, to refute the 2.7T bull sh1t that says aluminum motors are not able to hold any power over 400 crank hp

Does the ls1 have a sleeved block or just straight aluminum with chem coated walls?

What is the Ball park (I know some might argue the exact amount of power) on what the limits of the motor are before needed internal upgrades for strength.

What are some good strength and performance benefits In your opinions with the aluminum blocks (other then weight)
Do you guys have pic's of the motors tore down?

Can you give any incite to a fellow hot rodder that needs AWD and 4 doors?.

As a side note I did drive a CTS V for 2 years and loved it. Just needed AWD

Ive searched for some of these answers and not gotten much. I tried the search on this site and maybe I didn't put in the right words.

Nah, AWD adds weight. I'd rather have RWD unless I lived where there was a lot of snow. More than 50 inches seasonal.

**justincredible099** · 08-31-2009, 02:39 AM

Mark thanks. I wasn't sure if the F1 cars used the no sleeve all aluminum motors. As I know lots of pure race motors have that platform.

Any ball park idea how good just the Ni-cad coated aluminum cylinders hold up? we have a different name for them but would love to get some of your feed back.

The rest of the parts are forged

If you tech guys are interested in looking and giving your feed back here is a PDF on the motors..I'm trying to figure out how to post pic's

here if you guys want to look and give some insite
http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/kspg_pr...audi_zkg_e.pdf

**mark21742** · 08-31-2009, 03:18 AM

I did a little reading, all I have to say is 400+ hp, 8,200+ rpm stock is bad ass. I'd like to see some dyno charts to see where the power comes in....thats the beauty of the LS motors, they have very good under the curve power.... big torue numbers and wide power band.
to post pics, you need to have a file that starts and ends with [ IMG ]...... you can upload pics to photobucket, then copy/paste the IMG link

**justincredible099** · 08-31-2009, 03:26 AM

here you go mark. There not bad. But as stated before there is a little inner platform rivarly with the old S4's and the old S4 owners are passing off bad info about aluminum motors.

Im looking for GOOD info from you guys on the +'s of the aluminum motors. Also can you give me some ideas on other aluminum only motors with no sleeves?

here. Not too bad no Ls1 but its an Audi. Per your request

**mark21742** · 08-31-2009, 03:56 AM

by the way, welcome to the site!
slightly different topic, but close, I'm by no means a cam expert, but I've always wondered if you could gain power in multiple overhead cam motors and vary the powerband by reindexing the individual cams to effectively change lobe separation.
I would think that having separate exhaust and intake cams would really let you tailor fit and adjust full camshaft caracteristics to dial in the exact specs for the setup you have, without neding to buy a $300 to try then need to swapout to change lsa.
back on topic, you might want to checkout some of the new sportbike tech and exotic sports cars......(Ferrari, Bugati)..... damnit now you've got me curious lol
I'm going to have to checkout the multipule cam indexing to see if I can get more out of my bikes.

**justincredible099** · 08-31-2009, 04:19 AM

Mark,

Thanks again. There is only one tuner working with the cams and that IS JHM.

They changed the timing and there is not lots of room but still is some hp gain. After 5 years on the market JHM is the only one to get the cars into the 12's with just exhaust,tune,light weight rotors and intake spacers to keep the intake manifold cool.
They are the only ones really pushing the limits of our cars. The have headers,light weight crank pulleys (the motor is externally balanced so that was a piece of work on its own)

But as we the 4.2 V8's start to gain speed the old 2.7Turbo V6 guys are spreading lies at every corner about aluminum blocks and performance. The fact that they already told apparent B.S. about the ability of the LS1 shows there ignorance

If you can help with some links to sport bike motors or other wise with all aluminum motors that would be helpful as well.

Thanks for looking and thanks for all the help guys.

For those of you who care or are interested
My car (please excuse the music I didn't make the video)
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/B...-M3_203342.htm

not my car but the best we got right now....
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/F...-B6_701502.htm

**6.0LiterImportEater** · 08-31-2009, 11:50 AM

Hmmm.....interesting. Did not know this about Audi's new S4.

Most aluminum blocks are sleeved. Aluminum is not a fan of heat and friction. It will distort/warp since it is a 'ductile' material. Cast iron is mostly used due to the cost and it is a very hard or 'brittle' material.

I do know that Lexus is also using this aluminum-silicon alloy or ALUSIL. This is a new material so its quite pricey so only high end vehicles are seeing use of it. American domestics won't bother since its all about keeping cost relatively low for their vehicle lineup. Example an S4 is about $50k but is less power than the $35k Camaro SS.

One thing about this new material is the addition of silicon which is sand. Probaly scratching your head but if you have any background in material science then you know most ceramics are made of silicon or sand. Ceramics are very hard or 'brittle' materials and have great abrasion resistance and high heat properties. Exactly what you want for a cylinder sleeve. So adding this to the aluminum allows to get away from the use of sleeves and a lighter weight assembly.

It should hold some power though....even though that web thickness between walls of 5.5mm is a question mark. Tell those 2.7T wusses to quit hiding around boost and start playing with real potential. Never is there a replacement for displacement!!!

Throw a 100 shot of nitrous on your whip and I bet you will see low 12's or even high 11's! I would only be concerned with boosted applications with that small web thickness. Guess someone needs to be the guinea pig and boost a 4.2L S4 and see how much they can go!!!

**6.0LiterImportEater** · 08-31-2009, 12:07 PM

EDIT: Acura or Lexus.......don't remember which one is using the ALUSIL material. They stated it in a commercial for one of their new cars. Can't recall the specifics since I hate commercials in the first place.

**c5z28** · 08-31-2009, 02:30 PM

What kind of hp are you looking for, or are you just reading up to tell the turbo boys to piss off.

**Frost** · 08-31-2009, 09:45 PM

STOCK bottom end Vette running 9's at 140MPH with twin turbos that I tuned:
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86229

Local buddy Mightymouse, 995 SAE RWHP, stock 4bolt LS2 block and crankshaft:
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/MM-995hp-v2.mpg

Then the car was wrecked: http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/MMaccident.wmv

Mightymouse's same combo with an ERL modified LS2 block in the new WS6 with an automatic (4l80 overdrive) running 8's on street wheels (!)
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1...els_680086.htm

**justincredible099** · 08-31-2009, 09:51 PM

Guys first off thanks to all of you. Seriously I can't tell you the complete lack of info I can't tell you enough it is a constant ego battle with these 2.7T guys and info is not on there list.

The issue is that the N/A V8 is under going a big jump in performance. From headers to Superchargers to a super well thought out NOS kit that used one of the NOS greats nitro dave to help develop.

But every time we start talking and going over any info there is always a battle talking over the 2.7T constant misinformation of the aluminum block.

Ive brought up the LS1 before but they just keep preaching that you guys can't make any power and ditch the aluminum blocks cause aluminum blocks and the LS1 owners think there is no power to be had, so basically a bunch of bull Sh1t.

So Im doing a motor tear down on one of the blocks and am getting into the part about the strength and am looking to reference the LS1 as a success story with the aluminum blocks and power WITHOUT forged internals.

All in all the 2.7 wanna be elite just start talking out there a$$ and I'm gathering info knowing that there is going to be a sh1t storm of B.S. from them so Im gathering my facts so when the conversation comes Ill be ready with real info and a strong backing from the LS1 crowd

**justincredible099** · 08-31-2009, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by 6.0LiterImportEater

EDIT: Acura or Lexus.......don't remember which one is using the ALUSIL material. They stated it in a commercial for one of their new cars. Can't recall the specifics since I hate commercials in the first place.

Thanks I'm going to look into this. Also I found that the Porsche cayenne has the same thing so I'm looking into that.

Originally Posted by Frost

STOCK bottom end Vette running 9's at 140MPH with twin turbos that I tuned:
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86229

Local buddy Mightymouse, 995 SAE RWHP, stock 4bolt LS2 block and crankshaft:

Thanks Frost. Now step over into the Audi forum and they will tell YOU that didn't happen. LOL its that bad.

Bottom line its a bunch of trust fund kids with lots of money and time to play key board tuner cause they want to think there car is the only option for power and you can't refute the claim they make cause there is no info out there so they can keep making crazy claim after crazy claim. Being a moderator I have to be P/C about all this and am going to fight there fiction with facts...thanks to you guys.

**Frost** · 09-01-2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by justincredible099

....
So Im doing a motor tear down on one of the blocks and am getting into the part about the strength and am looking to reference the LS1 as a success story with the aluminum blocks and power WITHOUT forged internals.
......

For non-forged pistons, people try to keep our engines to 550rwhp for longevity. The ringlands on our OEM cast pistons are thin, and they are the failure point for a stock engine typically. With good tuning, they seem to be able to run into the mid 600s without forged pistons.

for these links, right-click and save-as...

Adam Wilson, stock short block, stock cylinder heads, baby P1sc blower, stock 6-speed trans... car made 635rwhp for a few years before he went bigger.
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/adam1048_lrg.avi
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/ad_mir_big.wmv

Jared (aka RICE ETR) made 638rwhp and car has been running and raced for 4 years at this power level. He recently switched to an automatic and the car ran a low 10 (10.10-10.20, I forget) spinning pretty badly:
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/rice_etr_dyno.wmv

This is the buildup of a member here's car (fast_wino) that made 643rwhp on the stock bottom end that I tuned: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forced...1-c-build.html

I tuned ClemsonDave's record stock longblock (yes all stock ls6) that made 62Xrwhp at 9psi. Only mods are supercharger, headers, and meth kit to make the numbers. Here is the small banner we ran before pinks this year:

**mark21742** · 09-01-2009, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Frost

For non-forged pistons, people try to keep our engines to 550rwhp for longevity. The ringlands on our OEM cast pistons are thin, and they are the failure point for a stock engine typically. With good tuning, they seem to be able to run into the mid 600s without forged pistons.

for these links, right-click and save-as...

Adam Wilson, stock short block, stock cylinder heads, baby P1sc blower, stock 6-speed trans... car made 635rwhp for a few years before he went bigger.
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/adam1048_lrg.avi
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/ad_mir_big.wmv

Jared (aka RICE ETR) made 638rwhp and car has been running and raced for 4 years at this power level. He recently switched to an automatic and the car ran a low 10 (10.10-10.20, I forget) spinning pretty badly:
http://www.tunedbyfrost.com/Frost/RPM/rice_etr_dyno.wmv

This is the buildup of a member here's car (fast_wino) that made 643rwhp on the stock bottom end that I tuned: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forced...1-c-build.html

I tuned ClemsonDave's record stock longblock (yes all stock ls6) that made 62Xrwhp at 9psi. Only mods are supercharger, headers, and meth kit to make the numbers. Here is the small banner we ran before pinks this year:

Frost you impress me more and more every day....i think I going to try and make Bills98TA put his car in the trailer and haul it down to you.
every time anyone around here tunes his car it slows down

**justincredible099** · 09-01-2009, 09:55 AM

Thanks guys. I just figured out that the twin turbo Porsche cayenne 550hp and 550 TQ has the same aluminum motor lay out as us and the same non Sleeved walls. This along with the TRUTH about the LS1 aluminum blocks is along the lines of what Ive been looking for

**Frost** · 09-01-2009, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by mark21742

Frost you impress me more and more every day....i think I going to try and make Bills98TA put his car in the trailer and haul it down to you.
every time anyone around here tunes his car it slows down

I don't know what they are doing to it to make it slow down...

Sure, bring it down here!