ETP 215'S VS AFR 205's

[Hi-Po]

I am already in the market for new heads. I want something more. Car runs great, But I think it has more in it. Im looking into mildly used heads. I have seen some ETP with an awesome 11* valve angle heads and some AFR 205's. I like the idea behind the ETP. 11* angle, less cross sectional area and the added PTV clearance.

I IDEALY want something that will work with my further plans of a 408 using current block Im running now. Thats why im leaning towards a 215cc. And these ETP heads sound so nice. Does any HERE run these heads? I know the pushrod issue related to the 11* angle and all. Im trying to squeeze everything I can out of this 364, all while still building my parts inventory up towards my 408.

The ONLY reason why im not looking into a rotating assembly for my LQ block is my ultimate goal for it. And the major money I need. Trying to be realistic with my goals, thats the first rule IMO. Which im not totally decided on and wont get into the wish list that many do

I am talking to two guys who have both of these heads. And I want some info. I just cant get the thought of the 205cc's choking my future 408. While the 215's could suffice and still make great power, over and above the 205's, in comparison.

Thanks.

[Hi-Po]

No on here runs ETP heads?

[davered00ss]

I did an LS2 402 build with a friend in a 98 Z with an auto and the car put down 505rwhp with AFR 205's and a ported FAST 78 with sometyhing like a 242/244 cam. I can't exactly remember the cam specs off the top of my head now.

I don't think the AFR 205's will choak it up, but I would go with the ETP's myself.

I will be using my AFR 205's on my LS2 402 build.

[Hi-Po]

I did an LS2 402 build with a friend in a 98 Z with an auto and the car put down 505rwhp with AFR 205's and a ported FAST 78 with sometyhing like a 242/244 cam. I can't exactly remember the cam specs off the top of my head now.

I don't think the AFR 205's will choak it up, but I would go with the ETP's myself.

I will be using my AFR 205's on my LS2 402 build.

Nice. So you would still go with the ETP's over the AFR's right? Im trying to price out complete assemled 215 ETP's but thier website is tricky. They have a list of options and then have their 11* LS1 heads listed at 2300. Im gonna take a wild American guess and say that is with zero options? If so, then wow, your talking big bucks and hence why I wanna buy used. They seem like the better heads even when compared to AFR and TF.

[Firebirdjones]

Comparing flow numbers would help. Anytime you have a pair of heads that flow the same,,,yet one set has a smaller intake runner size,,,the smaller intake runner is what you want to go with. Makes the same HP but also has more volocity for better throttle response and street manners,,,makes an all around better engine.
AFR is excellent at extracting air flow from a smaller CC intake runner,,,that's what makes them work so well.

Also keep in mind that anytime you can decrease the valve angle, the flow potential of the heads increase. Which is why these LS1's run so good in the first place, their 15 degree valve angles were only previously seen in nascar years before. Compared to the original Gen 1 and 2 23 degree head, that's a big change.
Now Trick Flow has 13.5 degree heads,,,the 427 Z06 head uses 12 degree heads. See how things keep getting better???
With that said,,,I believe AFR is still using stock 15 degree valve angles unless something has changed recently. So keep that in mind when comparing flow numbers to an 11 degree head. If you find they flow the same then the answer is real easy,,,the AFR's would be the better choice hands down,,,because if the 11 degree heads can't outflow the 15 degree heads, then that tells me they aren't a quality casting, or the CNC program stinks.

[Hi-Po]

Comparing flow numbers would help. Anytime you have a pair of heads that flow the same,,,yet one set has a smaller intake runner size,,,the smaller intake runner is what you want to go with. Makes the same HP but also has more volocity for better throttle response and street manners,,,makes an all around better engine.
AFR is excellent at extracting air flow from a smaller CC intake runner,,,that's what makes them work so well.

Also keep in mind that anytime you can decrease the valve angle, the flow potential of the heads increase. Which is why these LS1's run so good in the first place, their 15 degree valve angles were only previously seen in nascar years before. Compared to the original Gen 1 and 2 23 degree head, that's a big change.
Now Trick Flow has 13.5 degree heads,,,the 427 Z06 head uses 12 degree heads. See how things keep getting better???
With that said,,,I believe AFR is still using stock 15 degree valve angles unless something has changed recently. So keep that in mind when comparing flow numbers to an 11 degree head. If you find they flow the same then the answer is real easy,,,the AFR's would be the better choice hands down,,,because if the 11 degree heads can't outflow the 15 degree heads, then that tells me they aren't a quality casting, or the CNC program stinks.

Well, I compared the flow numbers between the two heads. But, is it really fair to compare a 205cc to a 215cc? With that said, the ETP's have crazy flow....

.100" 74 57 .100"
.200" 152 106 .200"
.300" 219 150 .300"
.400" 266 190 .400"
.500" 301 204 .500"
.550" 312 208 .550"
.600" 320 211 .600"
.650" 323 214 .650"

The .500 numbers is what looks awesome. The AFR's are flowing 281 at .500. Again, I dont think its completely fair to compare the two. And I also 100% completley agree with your statement.

Makes the same HP but also has more volocity for better throttle response and street manners,,,makes an all around better engine.

I have always sided with the velocity side of things. You can hog out any runner to flow impressively. But doesnt have the velocity of the smaller CC head.

And valve angle, Thats one thing that is always been a fact. Decrease the valve angle, and the flow is greatly improved. ETP's 11* head just screams


Edit: Those ETP flow numbers are with a 3.9 test bore and a 2.04 Intake and 1.57 exhuast valve.

[Hi-Po]

Wow, I also just realized ETP is right down the road from me 20 minute drive. Thats probably bad, because if I can see them in person, Ill probably buy them

[Firebirdjones]

Sure it's fair to compare a 215 intake runner to a 205,,,both have been worked on. Comparing flow numbers while keeping intake runner size in mind is how you can determine a good head from a great head. As you said,,,some places simply hog the runners out to a point of diminishing returns to gain a few cfm. That's what you have to be carefull of.

What's not fair to compare are 2 set's of heads with different valve angles,,,,now that's a major design change that has a huge affect on flow potential and cannot be manipulated with a CNC machine,,,know what I mean???

The best way to pick is to have a HP goal for a given CI size,,,and do some math to figure the amount of cylinder head flow needed to accomplish the HP goal,,,then pick a head with that amount of flow or more,,,with the smallest intake runner size you can find.

Those ETP heads sure look pretty good on paper. They aren't winning by much in the flow department considering they are 11 degree heads. But they have an advantage none the less.

[Firebirdjones]

Wow, I also just realized ETP is right down the road from me 20 minute drive. Thats probably bad, because if I can see them in person, Ill probably buy them

It's like a kid in the candy store,,,,that feeling never goes away no matter how old we get.

[Hi-Po]

Sure it's fair to compare a 215 intake runner to a 205,,,both have been worked on. Comparing flow numbers while keeping intake runner size in mind is how you can determine a good head from a great head. As you said,,,some places simply hog the runners out to a point of diminishing returns to gain a few cfm. That's what you have to be carefull of.

What's not fair to compare are 2 set's of heads with different valve angles,,,,now that's a major design change that has a huge affect on flow potential and cannot be manipulated with a CNC machine,,,know what I mean???

The best way to pick is to have a HP goal for a given CI size,,,and do some math to figure the amount of cylinder head flow needed to accomplish the HP goal,,,then pick a head with that amount of flow or more,,,with the smallest intake runner size you can find.

Those ETP heads sure look pretty good on paper. They aren't winning by much in the flow department considering they are 11 degree heads. But they have an advantage none the less.

But, you have to agree, even with that advantage of the 11* angle they would out perform the AFR's. Right? Im going to make a trip to ETP this week. Maybe Ill be picking up some new heads for my current, and my up coming plans. Thats really what it boils down to. They have to meet my plans for my future 408. As that engine will come with time. Im also seeing it as a curse having ETP so close.

[Firebirdjones]

But, you have to agree, even with that advantage of the 11* angle they would out perform the AFR's. Right? Im going to make a trip to ETP this week. Maybe Ill be picking up some new heads for my current, and my up coming plans. Thats really what it boils down to. They have to meet my plans for my future 408. As that engine will come with time. Im also seeing it as a curse having ETP so close.

Oh absolutely,,,,the 11 degree valve angle gives the ETP's a huge advantage. Although you are only seeing about 20 cfm at .500 lift. I'd be willing to bet if the valve angles were the same, the comparison would be more real world, and I'm betting the AFR's would come out on top.
Honestly I don't think you could go wrong with either head, and I'm thinking AFR makes a larger 215 or 220 head?? Would be interesting to compare those numbers to the 11 degree ETP 215's,,,,at least the intake runner size would be equal. Might give you a better idea. I'll see if I can dig something up.

[Firebirdjones]

I went to AFR's website. It appears they jump from the Mongoose 205's right to a 225 cc intake runner and that's it for the LS1.

I looked at the 225's and they appear to just about duplicate the flow numbers of the smaller 215 ETP's. With 304 cfm at .500 lift and they peak at 320 cfm at .600 lift.

Almost exactly like the ETP 215's do. With that said the ETP's look to be the better head with the smaller intake runner size. Just goes to show what the valve angle will do for a set of heads.

With them being right up the street from you I probably wouldn't hesitate to stop in and see what else they have to offer. Might be the way to go.

[shady milkman]

hey hi-po if you get those heads..give me a call to help with the install i need to see your whip !

[Hi-Po]

I went to AFR's website. It appears they jump from the Mongoose 205's right to a 225 cc intake runner and that's it for the LS1.

I looked at the 225's and they appear to just about duplicate the flow numbers of the smaller 215 ETP's. With 304 cfm at .500 lift and they peak at 320 cfm at .600 lift.

Almost exactly like the ETP 215's do. With that said the ETP's look to be the better head with the smaller intake runner size. Just goes to show what the valve angle will do for a set of heads.

With them being right up the street from you I probably wouldn't hesitate to stop in and see what else they have to offer. Might be the way to go.

Thats what I saw also. Pretty interesting. I want to know a final price though. It seems they START at 2350, then adding double springs, and some extra work might just push those heads beyond 2500-2600. Thats a price tag.

hey hi-po if you get those heads..give me a call to help with the install i need to see your whip !

Will do. I need to weigh some money options, and a new job prospect. If I get the new job, the heads will be at the least... sitting next my TA The new job would mean big changes to this car

[shady milkman]

Thats what I saw also. Pretty interesting. I want to know a final price though. It seems they START at 2350, then adding double springs, and some extra work might just push those heads beyond 2500-2600. Thats a price tag.


Will do. I need to weigh some money options, and a new job prospect. If I get the new job, the heads will be at the least... sitting next my TA The new job would mean big changes to this car

well good luck on the job prospect

[Firebirdjones]

Thats what I saw also. Pretty interesting. I want to know a final price though. It seems they START at 2350, then adding double springs, and some extra work might just push those heads beyond 2500-2600. Thats a price tag.


Will do. I need to weigh some money options, and a new job prospect. If I get the new job, the heads will be at the least... sitting next my TA The new job would mean big changes to this car

I'll second that. Jobs are hard to find right now and unemployment is still climbing. My wife has been looking for a year now. Goodluck, hope it works out.

[Frost]

Flow numbers don't mean much as a basis for comparison when they come from different benches and the test setups and procedures are not the same

I've actually only ever SEEN one set of ETP heads IRL; they are like unicorns!

[shady milkman]

I've actually only ever SEEN one set of ETP heads IRL; they are like unicorns!

that is good...how's your project coming along ?

[Frost]

I have no project

I have been eyeing an older C5 Z but nothing solid yet.

[Hi-Po]

Flow numbers don't mean much as a basis for comparison when they come from different benches and the test setups and procedures are not the same

I've actually only ever SEEN one set of ETP heads IRL; they are like unicorns!

Your not kidding. I drove in rush hour traffic up and down Haggerty rd 5 times looking for the place. Now, you can also say that shop is a Unicorn. Two locals seemed to think they recently closed the doors. I was bumming hard, after driving in that shit, I wanted to see some damn heads. Probably for the better, I would have spent another 2600 bucks, plus a new cam and then more money on tuning time