T56 Issues

**32vredsnake** · 05-01-2013, 10:44 AM

Good day to all of you!

-Never really posted on this forum so lets give it s shot.

I am a proud owner of a 2002 Firebird TransAm WS6 with a manual transmission. This past Saturday I got on it 3 times with high RPM shifts. The first 2 runs were from 3rd- 5th and it ran like a champ. The third run wasnt as successful... the clutch pedal went to the floor and I was forced to be towed for the night.

The issue is that the pedal came back up but with a light pressure not the same amount of pressure that it had before. I purchased the car in 02/13 and since this is the 3rd time it happens. The car lot where I purchased it from had it "fixed" twice and this time they are not picking up my calls or calling me back so I guess its time for me to get this done right instead of having someone put band-aids on a major issue.

I called the shop where they took the car to and they verified that the Car Lot provided them a New Clutch, New Slave Cylinder and Throw out bearing. They also advised that they resurfaced he flywheel and bleed the clutch fluid line.

So...
-the pedal is up (no longer stuck to the floor) with some pressure but not like before.
-I can push the clutch in and stick it in gear but will not move in any gear, but does go into all of them.
-I can hear a wining sound when the clutch is engaged and the wining is light when its released.
-at start up the car shakes heavily for a while then it somewhat smoothen out but still a shake tha is not engine related (thinking the car might need motor mounts but it didnt shake like this prior to Sat.).

Two friends of mine are telling me it could be the master clutch cylinder, to upgrade to the Tick Master Cylinder. However before I start bying parts I want to make sure I am buying the correct parts that are needed. This is my first hydrolic clutch issues and I want to make sure this is done right.

I made this quick video for a visual aid and to hear some of the sounds. The car has a full exhaust and cam so try to distinguish between the two. I thank you in advance for the help and opnions.
Javier.

**pajeff02** · 05-01-2013, 11:35 AM

Stock clutch master is known to give out under hard use. Upgrading to a Tick is the usual remedy. FWIW, the service manual advises against resurfacing the stock flywheel.

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-01-2013, 12:24 PM

Also how many miles on it? Around 70k, depending on how hard you drive, it may be due a new clutch pressure plate & disk.

Some things to consider -

If you are using it as a cruiser and light track use I recommend the LS7 clutch kit along with the Tick Master Cylinder*. LS7 clutch kit is go up to around 550 ftlbs of tq. I'm currently running it and it has yet to let me down.

Now if you are planing to mod the hell out of it then another clutch might be better. Monster, SPEC and few I can't remember are all good and each has their pro's and cons. Ask around, several members will tell you what they run or prefer.

Don't forget the slave. Now's a good time as any to replace it too.

Note - Tick Master Cylinder - This is a great product and works very well with all aftermarket clutches to included the LS7. However there is one thing you need to know about using it with the LS7 clutch. You need to install both at the same time otherwise you'll have some issues. The tick doesn't like a LS7's self adjustments it makes as it wears down from use unless you install it with a new clutch. Hope I'm explaining it right. Meaning - Tick MC + NEW LS7 Clutch Kit = OK, Tick MC + already worn LS7 Clutch Kit = problems.

**32vredsnake** · 05-01-2013, 12:57 PM

the car currently has 66k miles. The shop worked on it about 1k miles ago. I want to Boost it in the long run but for about a year or two it will be N/A.

The current situation is the Master Cylinder? I was freaking out that I broke an input shaft or the transmission? However this is my first F body and I am learning about the Master Clutch Cylinder as we speak.

**ls1camino** · 05-02-2013, 06:40 AM

Something wrong with the hydraulics...either the master cylinder or the slave cylinder gave out. I would suggest replacing the master cylinder with a Tick Performance Adjustable Master Cylinder since you don't have to drop the transmission to do that. If that doesn't fix the issue, then you can get a new slave cylinder and a new (read: better) clutch setup.

**32vredsnake** · 05-02-2013, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by ls1camino

Something wrong with the hydraulics...either the master cylinder or the slave cylinder gave out. I would suggest replacing the master cylinder with a Tick Performance Adjustable Master Cylinder since you don't have to drop the transmission to do that. If that doesn't fix the issue, then you can get a new slave cylinder and a new (read: better) clutch setup.

Yea... I guess I need to purchase the Tick Master Cylinder anyway and if it fixes it great. If not then I can start buying a Real clutch and if anything else is broken once the tranny is out address it then.

**ls1camino** · 05-02-2013, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by 32vredsnake

Yea... I guess I need to purchase the Tick Master Cylinder anyway and if it fixes it great. If not then I can start buying a Real clutch and if anything else is broken once the tranny is out address it then.

Don't worry. With your symptoms, you didn't break the clutch or the trans. If the master cylinder is broken and you're pulling the trans, I would upgrade the clutch.

**32vredsnake** · 05-02-2013, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by ls1camino

Don't worry. With your symptoms, you didn't break the clutch or the trans. If the master cylinder is broken and you're pulling the trans, I would upgrade the clutch.

So my buddy thats a Certified Chevy mechanic said and i quote:

"Hey bud. I don't think it's a master cylinder. Find one person that can explain how your master cylinder is causing this bc there is no way the hydraulic pressure is being retained and causing the clutch to stay disengaged."

He hasn't had time to see it yet only the video like you guys, however he's usually right. Ideas or explanations?

**2002ssslp** · 05-02-2013, 07:40 PM

Replace the entire clutch system with the LS7 clutch and flywheel and a Tick master and a new throw out bearing. Just pray that the slider keys in the trans are ok.

**32vredsnake** · 05-04-2013, 05:26 PM

Can anyone recommend a good transmission shop in the DFW area?

**Firebirdjones** · 05-06-2013, 11:14 AM

That's easy, if your buddy understands hydraulics and how they work, you can relate the same issue with bydraulic brakes. The hydraulic clutch has the same inherent issues. Basically hot fluid doesn't work well in a hydraulic system. Brakes for instance will give you a very mushy pedal and feel as if your brakes aren't working when you cook the fluid. Heat cycles that introduce moisture and air don't help either. Which is why it's important to flush the fluid regularly.

The hydraulic clutch is the same way. It needs changed frequently. Run it hard through the gears a few times and the fluid heats up. When you take into account there just isn't all that much fluid capacity in the system you can imagine this doesn't take long. To cripple it even more, GM incorporates a very small orifice in the line to limit hydraulic flow in an attempt to slow down clutch engagement for warranty reasons.

This stuff combined adds up to a crappy clutch system. A good Tick adjustable master will eliminate these issues.

**32vredsnake** · 05-06-2013, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

That's easy, if your buddy understands hydraulics and how they work, you can relate the same issue with bydraulic brakes. The hydraulic clutch has the same inherent issues. Basically hot fluid doesn't work well in a hydraulic system. Brakes for instance will give you a very mushy pedal and feel as if your brakes aren't working when you cook the fluid. Heat cycles that introduce moisture and air don't help either. Which is why it's important to flush the fluid regularly.

The hydraulic clutch is the same way. It needs changed frequently. Run it hard through the gears a few times and the fluid heats up. When you take into account there just isn't all that much fluid capacity in the system you can imagine this doesn't take long. To cripple it even more, GM incorporates a very small orifice in the line to limit hydraulic flow in an attempt to slow down clutch engagement for warranty reasons.

This stuff combined adds up to a crappy clutch system. A good Tick adjustable master will eliminate these issues.

Thank you for the response, however there is another question.
"Why doesnt it move is the car is in gear?"

**ls1camino** · 05-06-2013, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by 32vredsnake

Thank you for the response, however there is another question.
"Why doesnt it move is the car is in gear?"

Clutch is probably still engaged.

**32vredsnake** · 05-06-2013, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by ls1camino

Clutch is probably still engaged.

Thanks once again and I quote:
"How? What's keeping it engaged? Doesn't make sense. That's a lot of pressure to hold."

**ls1camino** · 05-07-2013, 04:04 AM

Master cylinder sounds like it is stuck disengaged. Or the slave cylinder could be shot and not actually working with the master.

**Firebirdjones** · 05-07-2013, 07:46 AM

I think what he is trying to say is that if you have a master or slave that isn't holding pressure, you'll never be able to release the clutch (meaning the clutch is engaged), therefore it won't go in gear with the engine running.

You could try putting it in gear, then push the clutch in and crank the engine over. If it moves the car then you know the clutch isn't releasing. Just make sure there is nothing around when you do

**32vredsnake** · 05-11-2013, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

I think what he is trying to say is that if you have a master or slave that isn't holding pressure, you'll never be able to release the clutch (meaning the clutch is engaged), therefore it won't go in gear with the engine running.

You could try putting it in gear, then push the clutch in and crank the engine over. If it moves the car then you know the clutch isn't releasing. Just make sure there is nothing around when you do

I wanted to try a few things today.
1) One was what you said, then I realized I did that the night it left me stranded. And it wouldn't allow me to turn the car on. Then after 2-3 attempts I stop. When the tow truck got there I tried it again and then it allowed me to turn it on and thats when it wasnt moving anymore.
2) I turned the car on and put it in 1st gear, handbrake off and checked the driveshaft. Not moving.
3) I noticed that the car would rock a bit while I would put the shifter on a gear till it went in gear then it did nothing but a noise. When i would push it toward Reverse it would want to move back but once in it didnt move. Made a short clip.

**redbird555** · 05-14-2013, 05:25 PM

Judging by the video I can only think of 2 things that could cause this lol. The clutch pedal going limp and the in gear problems maybe related or maybe not. You seem to be able to put the car in gear with the clutch in or out. This means the inside of the trans is not spinning OR its is spinning lightly enough that the synchros can stop it. This can only be cause by a SEVERELY slipping clutch, a clutch not fully engaging or the input on the trans is broken not allowing the internals to spin.

A bad master or slave will not cause the clutch to stay disengaged as they will not hold pressure like your friend stated and will cause the clutch to stay engaged. Your limp pedal could be caused by them though. Next then would be a very bad slipping clutch. In this case you have fried the clutch and the disk no longer has the friction and or clamping power to hold the engine tq t move the car. Here the synchros would be able to stop the trans and allow you to get in gear but the engine would over power the clutch and it wont go anywhere. However in this situation I imagine you would also smell the clutch as it was burning. But I imagine it would make a noise like you have.

A faulty pressure plate may also be keeping the disk from engaging and could cause this issue and would again exhibit similar symptoms, finally the input shaft going into the trans could be damaged and not spinning the internals of the trans. I honestly dont think its this because you feel resistance when applying pressure to the shifter meaning the input is spinning and the resistance you feel are the synchros working to stop it.

Either way at this point the trans needs to come out. Not only to replace the slave but to have a good look at the clutch and input shaft on the trans. My guess is you'll find a toasted clutch. And btw dont keep doing what you're doing in the last video. You're putting a lot of stress on the synchros by holding the shifter there and forcing it in gear. Eventually you can ruin the syncs doing that and will need a rebuild. As of now it appears the trans is functionsing ok as it enters all gears without grinding and doesnt get stuck so just keep it that way.