Any one tried ethanol yet?

**stevegrizzle** · 04-21-2007, 10:18 AM

I just decided to give ethanol a try since I found out its close to 118 octane, so I mix 1/2 tank ethanol 1/2 tank 93 and there seems to be a noticable difference; the car pulls harder and seems to idle and rev up more smoothly.
Has anyone else tried this and did you experience similar results?

**Steve Crowe** · 04-21-2007, 10:42 AM

If an engine is designed for it it burns well, however it takes far more fuel to get the same amount of energy out.

Fuel type ---------MJ/L --- BTU/US gal -- Research octane number (RON)
Regular Gasoline -- 34.8 ---- 125,000 ------ 91
Ethanol 23.5 ----- 31.1 ----- 84,600 ------ 129
Methanol 17.9 ---- 19.9 ---- 64,600 ------ 123

You should also consider what the octane rating is all about. It has nothing to do with the amount of power a fuel contains, just its resistance to pre-ignition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

**stevegrizzle** · 04-21-2007, 10:48 AM

less detonation=more timing=more power, correct?

Anyone actually tried it, I have felt a noticable difference and its about 40mi into the tank.

**Steve Crowe** · 04-21-2007, 11:17 AM

There's a limit as to how far the PCM will advance the timing. If you're seeing an improvement with Ethanol you might try higher octane gas by itself then compare. Around here we can buy Unleaded 114 at a few pumps, if I know I'm going to get serious I mix that with regular pump gas to come up with an octane of 96. Testing has shown that my engine, as modded, can't take advantage of anything over 96 - 97 octane.

Another thing to be considered is the fact that most cars experience anywhere from a 4 - 15% loss in gas mileage when run on plain gasohol. (5 - 10% ethanol) I'm headed to San Antonio this Thursday, a trip I take often, and there are certain stations I won't stop at due to the ethanol content of the fuel they sell. It burns OK but I end up losing 2 - 3 mpg.

Actually quite funny to explain to the ecology nuts. If a car ends up getting 10% less mpg when running on gasohol that means gallon for gallon you need to burn 10% more fuel to go the same distance. Seems to me that puts you burning even more of the gasoline they claim is a major pollutant.

10 gallons of straight gasoline gets you 250 miles
10 gallons of ethanol gasoline gets you 225 miles

You need to burn 11 gallons of gasohol to go the same 250 miles, 10 of which is gasoline. What have you gained? You've just burned an extra gallon of fuel and produced just that much more exhaust.

**ixlr8nxs** · 04-21-2007, 10:12 PM

The major environment improvement comes from the fact that Ethanol burns so much cleaner that it more than offsets the extra exhaust

**980birds** · 04-22-2007, 06:44 AM

There was a study on msn the other day saying that E-85 ethanol polluted 10% more than regular gas. It was on there home page on Thursday or Friday.

**SSTODD** · 04-23-2007, 07:44 AM

If the car is not designed to run on ethanol (E-85) and gas I would never try it! You can destroy your entire fuel system because it is not the correct material to handle what E-85 does to certain metals.

**70RScamaro** · 04-23-2007, 05:54 PM

thanks SSTODD i was just gonna say that no camaro can run on e-85 , i went to seminar about alternative fuels and the teacher was saying that people didnt know there car couldn't run on this and they put it in not knowing and their whole fuel system was getting eaten away !! some cars he serviced didnt even run it was soo bad. so if u dont have flex fuel car dont run the stuff

**ss~zoso~ss** · 04-23-2007, 06:13 PM

does it hurt to run a mix of 110 leaded race gas?

**SSTODD** · 04-24-2007, 05:49 AM

Lead kills cats so it depends on your mods.

**Steve Crowe** · 04-24-2007, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by ixlr8nxs

The major environment improvement comes from the fact that Ethanol burns so much cleaner that it more than offsets the extra exhaust

Makes no difference, you're still buring the same amount of gasoline due to the lowered mpg.

Alsodepends on what you consider cleaner - ethanol produces far less of some pollutant but the same or more of others.

**Steve Crowe** · 04-24-2007, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by ss~zoso~ss

does it hurt to run a mix of 110 leaded race gas?

Not really so long as it's unleaded. We can get 114 unleaded here at some pumps.Of course that's kind of a waste unless you're running extremely high compression so most people dilute it down to the octane range they want.

In most cases the higher the octane of a fuel the slower it burns thus as you increase octane you eventally come to a point where taking it any higher is counterproductive.

**secondgearscratch** · 04-24-2007, 07:32 AM

i had some guy at my old job with a 94 5.0 try to tell me that when he runs ethanol he runs it straight and puts his 150 jet in the intake. he said its just raw power. just raw....

302 to the rear wheels n/a with dart pro stage 2 heads, a ford "b" cam, longtubes, and a magnaflow catback. trick flow double intake plenum. dyno tuned.

but of course with the ethanol and the 150 shot hes making about 950 to the wheels.....

i am just going to stop inquiring about things, i get suprised on a daily basis at how ridiculous people are....

**vaticano** · 04-27-2008, 09:38 AM

I use it. I converted about a year ago. I have 2002 Trans Am with a procharger. Lets just start by clearing up a few things. The octane for E-85 is about 105. The timing benifits are mostly for FI. The timing will only have a benifit up to the max timing your combo will allow NA. I have my timing set at 26*, I pushed it to 28* and saw no effect. I am running at 10#'s up to 5900 rpm then the belt starts slipping. My first dyno session I hit 642 rwhp and 593 rwtq. This was at an AFR of 14:1 at 5800 rpm, and timing at 19*. This was the based tune I got from the shop I bought the blower from. AFR should have been 8.4:1. The key factor is that there was no knock retard logged on my scanner. This was done with a Walboro 255 pump and 42# injectors. I recently upgraded to Dual intank pumps and 79# injectors. I put a bigger filter on the procharger, upped the timing to 26*. With the right amount of fuel and more timing I hit 723 rwhp and 654 rwtq on 10#'s of boost. This is SAE corrected at 1.20. I have cnc'd LS6 heads a 224 576 116 cam Hooker LT a Fast 90, all bolted to my STOCK short block. Of all the dyno #'s I have seen very few are as high as mine with a simlar setup and boost level. In fact I have seen far higher boost levels making the same power I am. The guy who got the dyno day together runs a bigger cam and 15#'s of boost and made only 20 rwhp more than me. While changeing the fuel pump and injectors I saw absolutely no corrosion or any evidence of E-85 causing any problems. I read all the controvercy stated on this site about E-85, non of wich was based on actual exsperience, so I thought I would play the devil's avocate and put it in my car. One guy said the 10% ethanol in the gas he used destroyed his fuel rails. He even claimed to have proof. Then when he was asked to show the proof, he forgot he threw it away. BS. You can read all the BS you want, you wont know until you try it for yourself. If in 2,3,or 4 years my fuel sytem falls apart, I'll be sure to state it as fact that it ruined my car. Until then I'll keep useing it. Think outside the box, it's getting crowded in there.

**rbob93** · 04-27-2008, 10:13 AM

According to my owners manual for my 2000 Camro, GM recommends use of oxeygenated fuels such as those with ETHANOL.

METHANOL is a big nono as it will corrode metal fuel system parts, & eat th rubber components.

**Acceleration Junky** · 04-30-2008, 03:29 AM

I think that all the gas in my area is 10% ethanol. At least at all the "name brand" stations. I don't have a choice or a problem with it. GM does recommend that you use fuel with oxygenates. It's an environmental thing. So, yes our cars are equipped to run fuel with a certain amount of ethanol in it. And not to be a smart ass but, GAS MILEAGE??? I clock mine for regular maintenance, but I was far from upset when my mpg dropped after my mods.

**Eagle** · 04-30-2008, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by vaticano

I use it. I converted about a year ago. I have 2002 Trans Am with a procharger. Lets just start by clearing up a few things. The octane for E-85 is about 105. The timing benifits are mostly for FI. The timing will only have a benifit up to the max timing your combo will allow NA. I have my timing set at 26*, I pushed it to 28* and saw no effect. I am running at 10#'s up to 5900 rpm then the belt starts slipping. My first dyno session I hit 642 rwhp and 593 rwtq. This was at an AFR of 14:1 at 5800 rpm, and timing at 19*. This was the based tune I got from the shop I bought the blower from. AFR should have been 8.4:1. The key factor is that there was no knock retard logged on my scanner. This was done with a Walboro 255 pump and 42# injectors. I recently upgraded to Dual intank pumps and 79# injectors. I put a bigger filter on the procharger, upped the timing to 26*. With the right amount of fuel and more timing I hit 723 rwhp and 654 rwtq on 10#'s of boost. This is SAE corrected at 1.20. I have cnc'd LS6 heads a 224 576 116 cam Hooker LT a Fast 90, all bolted to my STOCK short block. Of all the dyno #'s I have seen very few are as high as mine with a simlar setup and boost level. In fact I have seen far higher boost levels making the same power I am. The guy who got the dyno day together runs a bigger cam and 15#'s of boost and made only 20 rwhp more than me. While changeing the fuel pump and injectors I saw absolutely no corrosion or any evidence of E-85 causing any problems. I read all the controvercy stated on this site about E-85, non of wich was based on actual exsperience, so I thought I would play the devil's avocate and put it in my car. One guy said the 10% ethanol in the gas he used destroyed his fuel rails. He even claimed to have proof. Then when he was asked to show the proof, he forgot he threw it away. BS. You can read all the BS you want, you wont know until you try it for yourself. If in 2,3,or 4 years my fuel sytem falls apart, I'll be sure to state it as fact that it ruined my car. Until then I'll keep useing it. Think outside the box, it's getting crowded in there.

Excellent post. Most of the research I've done on the subject is backed by this guy's real world experience. E85 does not damage the fuel systems of newer cars. Can you run straight E85 in a car not tuned for it? Possibly, but you're basically running it VERY lean for the stoich rating of the fuel. Is it less efficient than say 93 octane gasoline (meaning, will your MPG decrease when running E85)? Yes. However it can handle more timing and therefore potentially create more power when tuned properly. Some estimate between 10-15% more power...

Most important to take away from this is that E85 will not EAT your fuel system in a LS1 powered car (aka: newer model FI vehicles). Comon sheeple, do your research!

-Eagle

**knappbunch** · 04-30-2008, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Eagle

Excellent post. Most of the research I've done on the subject is backed by this guy's real world experience. E85 does not damage the fuel systems of newer cars. Can you run straight E85 in a car not tuned for it? Possibly, but you're basically running it VERY lean for the stoich rating of the fuel. Is it less efficient than say 93 octane gasoline (meaning, will your MPG decrease when running E85)? Yes. However it can handle more timing and therefore potentially create more power when tuned properly. Some estimate between 10-15% more power...

Most important to take away from this is that E85 will not EAT your fuel system in a LS1 powered car (aka: newer model FI vehicles). Comon sheeple, do your research!

-Eagle

what abou the myths of ethanol putting too much moisture in youyr injectors and eventually causing problems obviously by your psts it does not seem to be an issue

**SSTODD** · 04-30-2008, 08:20 AM

Why would all the manufacturers waste the time and money to change the associated components and programming on the certain engines for E-85 if they could just say "go for it" and use it everywhere? They are changing fuel pumps, lines, injectors and maybe more from the standard equipment. I will not take that risk with my car when 10% is what I think the manual says is maximum.

**Eagle** · 04-30-2008, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by SSTODD

Why would all the manufacturers waste the time and money to change the associated components and programming on the certain engines for E-85 if they could just say "go for it" and use it everywhere? They are changing fuel pumps, lines, injectors and maybe more from the standard equipment. I will not take that risk with my car when 10% is what I think the manual says is maximum.

As stated, you need to be able to deliver MORE E85 to the engine to equal the same amount of GASOLINE. Therefore, if gasoline injectors run @ say 75% @ WOT, they would run @ something like 90% to support E85. From the factory, they are increasing the amount of fuel that the fuel system can flow. And yep, you guessed it. If you want the computer to be able to handle E85 AND gasoline, it needs to be able to sense the fuel type and have two completely different "programs" (simplifying this big time to save time explaining more) to be able to properly deliver the correct amount of either fuel type to the engine.

Research more. E85 is not that scary if you're a capable tuner and don't mind upgrading your fuel system if required due to your mods putting you over the edge of what your factory fuel system can support.

HTH,
-Eagle