2000mile road/rally race...advice

**Intrepidman** · 12-29-2008, 05:29 AM

Hey everyone, I'm dreaming big at the moment...assuming I can get preped in the next 6 months and steal my old man away from his new wife I'm hoping to enter the two of us as a rally team into a crazy 2000 mile road race. (actually only 400 miles are timed).
BUT first things first, I need a car (no way I'm entering my prized WS6 collector's edition). The race takes place in a remote section of canada on narrow winding roads that are often very rough (pot holes) and its often coastal...so while no one has done it yet, a car "could" end up tumbling off 100' cliff, or (as has been done a few times) a car could impact a truck sized boulder should it leave the road. OUCH!
I'm wondering what the crash test rating on a F-body is...though a role cage is required anyway, the F-body just seems kinda cramped for someone 6'3" and I'm wondering how surviveable it would be.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a good vehicle for this kind of race, something "safe", but still a lot of fun. (I should mention there are indexed classes, everything from turbocharged vette's and fully preped porches down to VW buggs and even a model T one year.)
I was thinking maybe a V6 f-body with modded brakes and suspension, a supercharged monte carlo, or maybe a lowered V8 dodge dakota...thats right a truck (might handle the extreme roads better...lowered cars are proven never to survive by the races history)
Any input welcome...I'm currently too excited to be concise in my questions ;-)

**hutch1999** · 12-29-2008, 08:37 AM

you can find a decent ls1 z-28 for around 5 grand now

**Intrepidman** · 12-29-2008, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by hutch1999

you can find a decent ls1 z-28 for around 5 grand now

I was considering an F-body, but I'm not so sure I want to run the rally in a car that is probably going to get me killed or maimed if I put it off the course....in an LS1 F-body I will be going FAST! and there doesn't seem like much protection for a tall guy.....but I'm still considering it.

Where are you finding them so cheap though?? (seriously I'm interested) I just browsed the online autotrader and nationwide a 4th gen (even LT1 4th gen) seems to command at least $8000 with decent miles (under 60K)

**hutch1999** · 12-29-2008, 11:54 AM

Decent miles is 60k? You realize you are going to be tearing the shit out of this car and wouldnt need anything in great condition. Dont be afraid of the 100k f bods esp if they are near stock.

Look on ls1tech.com for sale section and there are a ton of decent priced ls1 cars on there.

**Intrepidman** · 12-29-2008, 12:01 PM

In stock or lightly moded classes you are required to run factory equipment almost exclusively....if I were to run wide open class then I wouldn't mind replacing ALL the worn parts (bushings, bearings, sway bar links, tie rod ends..and on and on and on) but for the classes I intend to run in, it would be nice for the equipment on the car, when I buy it, to still be in useable (and reliable) condition, rather than mostly used up.
In my experience 60K is actually pushing it pretty far for all of the above on any of my previous cars.

But while were talking, how do the LS1s, LT1s and their trannies tend to hold up to high mileage.....you almost never see one of these cars with 200+K on them...but then, that might be just because of their nature.

**hutch1999** · 12-29-2008, 12:11 PM

Trannys hold up if they are not abused which is sometimes hard to find on higher mileage cars. But with these cars like I said I wouldnt be afraid of 80k-100k on them for what you are going to do.

**bigrondownhiller** · 12-29-2008, 12:57 PM

With the kind of racing you are planning I would replace most of the parts you were talking about regardless of mileage. Most of the cars you would be looking at would be about 10 years old or so. Just the age of bushings and things would make me want to replace them. A v6 car you would be able to get even cheaper.

**RageAgainstTheMinivan** · 12-29-2008, 03:54 PM

Sounds fun, got a link to this thing or pics?

You mentioned a dakota, I had a dakota r/t with the 5.9l. It was a fun truck, comfortable, and ride quality was great. Gas mileage was terrible, 13 mpg absolutly babying it. Racing it would definately be mid singles if gas stops are an issue.

My next suggestion for a car would be german. I personally dont like VW much, but theyre a popular autocross car. If they can get the snot pounded out of them every sunday they should survive your race.

My $0.02.

**UTVols98** · 12-29-2008, 11:33 PM

Agree with the Dakota. Nice ride for the long races and, since being a truck, safer and better for rough roads.

**c5z28** · 12-30-2008, 12:22 AM

Tell us what event this is, if it's anything like the gumball or bullrun there is a steep donation and is pretty exclusive which has me wondering why your looking at cheap ass cars.
That said you need an awd vehicle r32 in your case or sti/evo for those windy rough roads your talking about.

**third_shift|studios** · 12-30-2008, 04:27 AM

i'm assuming this is Bullrun? Good luck, man! That's a shit load of cash to put up for a glorified road race.

**Intrepidman** · 12-30-2008, 04:46 AM

Hahaha....definetly not bullrun. I could only image those guys tearing around NFLD (newfoundland) ... what does bullrun cost anyway, I bet its SCARY.

This race is called the Targa Newfoundland....there are probably some cool youtube videos of the greatest moments (and F ups). I like the "water car" footage....I may be adding a life jacket to the list of standard safety equipment ;-)

So how were those dakotas you guys were talking about...I was thinking a 5.9L RT version if I could find one, or a 4.7L "sport" if I had to. But what kind of acceleration do they have 0-60, & 1/4 mile? And if you drop them and add good suspension do they handle?
As I said before, the classes are fairly well indexed so you can be competitive in most anything (a neon that meets its performance goals can beat a supercharged vette that under achieves, that kinda deal) But I still want a vehicle that is going to be enjoyable.
For me the light little AWDs with crazy turbo's just aren't my style, and while a few guys (often pro rally teams) do bring them I don't think they often do overly well. The overall winner many times has been older RWD models...I think a late 60 or early 70s moded stang and then a old 4 door bmw. etc. (I'm just trying to remember, I think they each took it twice)

**c5z28** · 12-30-2008, 05:11 PM

an old muscle car is going to be shit on mountain roads unless you have gobs of money. Any truck will be more comftorable than a sports car but body roll and leaf suspension combined with the weight will make it more of a cruise rather than a full on road race. A turbo bmw would be good- torque, good gas mileage, and good handling with the comfort you are looking for.
oh yeah cameras I want to see what that trip looks like from the car.
give us a budget, that way you have something to work with.

**innerchi89** · 12-30-2008, 05:56 PM

he is in canada, f-bodys are going to cost a little more.

**Intrepidman** · 12-31-2008, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by innerchi89

he is in canada, f-bodys are going to cost a little more.

They are just about impossible to find (at least in atlantic canada) I do all my F-body shopping online......with the american auto trader.

**Intrepidman** · 12-31-2008, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by c5z28

an old muscle car is going to be shit on mountain roads unless you have gobs of money. Any truck will be more comftorable than a sports car but body roll and leaf suspension combined with the weight will make it more of a cruise rather than a full on road race. A turbo bmw would be good- torque, good gas mileage, and good handling with the comfort you are looking for.
oh yeah cameras I want to see what that trip looks like from the car.
give us a budget, that way you have something to work with.

I assume the old musclecars and classic sedans that have been winning have various degrees of suspension modifications....but even stock they could be competitive (remember its an indexed race, a geo metro could beat a corvette)

Some of those bmws do look kinda fun, but I wouldn't choose one over a sport truck just because of fuel mileage....each stage takes less than a tank, no matter what your driving (unless its truely crazy)

Comfort isn't really high on my list....survivability is, being tall I tend to get bonked on the head and/or decapitated easier than your average 5'9" guy. I measured my WS6 last night, in order to sit in it wearing a helmet I would have to have a seat mounted so that it's surface is no more than 1" from the floor.

But if I could get a longer stearing column that would allow me to recline, currently my arms stop reaching the wheel long before my legs stop reaching the pedals so I can't recline anymore. (and I can't push the seat up close and recline back, because then my legs are cramped and I don't want to break then on the dash in every little crash)

**Intrepidman** · 12-31-2008, 09:20 AM

I will definetly have some kind of video from in car..or truck..but there are already plenty of vids on youtube from previous targa newfoundland runnings, if you want to see some of the action.

As for a budget....$2500 already goes to racing rims and 6 tires. $600 for seats, not sure, but maybe $600 for helmets and harnesses. Fire suits and gloves ??? Roll cage, about $400 pre built (if me and the old man can install it ourselves)

For the car, I'm hoping to go under 8K before mods

....and I'll be running "stock" class (which allows mods, just nothing too involved) For example high flow cats and exhuasts are OK, headers are not. New shocks and springs are legal, any change to lightweight A-arms or suspension geometry is not. etc etc.

**c5z28** · 12-31-2008, 12:55 PM

I have looked on youtube and expected more dirt roads, at least the vids I saw were mostly asphault correct me if i'm wrong. Any muscle car compteting in there has either stiffer leafsprings or shocks welded in, having driven a few older camaros, mustangs and a chargers any turning would be scary on the stock stuff, they are like freaking boats, that said you can look at summit racing magazines and buy shocks that can be welded in. Better yet go on ls1tech and look for Sam Strano you can give him a call he is the suspension king and will tell you what system works best with what.
Also which states in America are you looking to buy a car in might be fun to look at.
Can you tell me what indexed means I have no idea, and would cam and heads be a no, changes in brake size or from drum to disk?

**Intrepidman** · 12-31-2008, 02:07 PM

Ok, in open class virtually any mods are a go (but no NO2), in stock class you can't do a whole lot..upgrades but not much in the way of changes, no motor work. Brakes are more free though, I think you can do just about anything to the brakes even in stock class....I haven't read the complete roll book.

What I mean by indexed, or class based racing is that each car is evaluated and a performance goal is set for that car depending on its abilities. The winner of the race (once its all hashed out) is the driver who comes in with the least amount of penalty points (based mostly on time taken in excess of your cars alloted time)
For example a stage might have a time limit of 10 minutes for a C6 vette, but with a cavalier the time limit might be 15 minutes. If the drivers actually take 11 minutes and 15.5 minutes respectively the cavalier will have been deemed the winner. His time was only 30 seconds off his assigned time, while the vettes was a whole minute off his assigned time.

Its the only way you can run a race open to all vehicles and still have them compete evenly against each other as an evaluation of the drivers and not just who can spend the most on thier cars.

**Intrepidman** · 12-31-2008, 02:12 PM

I wonder how an 88 monte carlo SS handles....I can get one of those dirt cheap, in decent shape, and the pics look like its big enough to put a cage in and still have head room.