Replacing entire system, need some help!

**sketterman** · 02-06-2006, 10:31 PM

Hello all,

Well I've already read through a couple of lengthy, and very entertaining threads on here about this topic, but each one seems to get so far of course and technical that its hard for guys with little experience like myself to understand

I've already got a good Pioneer Premier head unit, I've had it in the car for a few months now, but this summer I want to replace EVERYTHING, minus the head unit. I have the monsoon system in a 98TA coupe. So I want to get rid of the factory amp, and all 10 speakers.

Heres my initial plan

New speakers, of course, Im thinking about deleting the rear trunk speakers, upgrading the front tweeters/mids, putting some 2-way
6.5's in the rear seat area, and then either getting a custom box for the back where the Bose-equipped Camaros have their factory sub, or getting a normal box with a sub and amp.

So with all this, these are my first questions:

1. Can I still use the factory harness?
2. Where in the hell is the Monsoon amp, and how can I get rid of it?
3. Who do you go to/talk to about getting a custom box made for the rear of our cars where the camaros have them?

And as far as amps go, Im really lost, so..

1. What would you 'in the know' folks suggest for powering the front door components and the rear seat 6.5's? Would I get a single 4 channel amp for all of them, or would I need an additional 2 channel amp for the rear seats?
2. In regards to this amp(s), what wattage should it/they be? I will be getting decent, but not necessarily top of the line/state of the art speakers.
3. What size sub can you fit back there? I don't want anything smaller than a 10", so should I consider just getting a regular box? I do want to be able to remove my T-Tops.
4. What brand of amps and speakers are recemmended? I'm trying to get a feel of whats good these days.

I'm not looking to build any sort of competition system with this. Im the kind of guy who likes his music to sound GOOD. I will have some money to spend, but like I said, I dont want a $1500.00 component set and $1200.00 subwoofer. I know some good, non wallet draining coaxials would be Infiniti, and I have friends back home with 12" MTX Road Thunder 8000 or something like that, and they sound great. But I'm here for help and suggestions so please fire away!

Damn I realize this is a lot of shit, but hopefully this will answer questions for more people than just myself, thanks in advance for any help!!

**rotwiler** · 02-07-2006, 12:51 AM

1)Can't use the factory harness, even if you could, you would want some better wires for the increased power.

2)The Monsoon amp is on the passenger side hump, near the spare tire area, unplug everything and unbolt it.

3)A steathbox holds a single 10 and can be found on subthump.com, JL Audio, MTX and rockbox makes 10 inch stealtbox's also. They sit in the factory cd changer area and don't take up any hatch space.

4)A single 4 channel amp is all you need to run (4) 6.5 compnents, the compnents come with a crossover that seperates the highs and lows, so they only use 1 channel per speaker. I would use a seperate mono block amp to run the sub. You could save some money and run the front components off a 4 channel amp, run a sub off the other 2 channels, then run the sailpanel 6.5's off the HU power and you wouldn't need expensive 6.5's in the sailpanel, some 2ohm Infinity or Orion 3ohm should do and give you that little extra fill you may want. Many people only run with front components and subs with great results.

5)I had JL audio 10w0's in my car before and they were a very efficient sub and hit pretty hard, added some Memphis audio 10's(about $90 each) and they hit much harder, but use a lot more power to push them. I can't comment too much on subs, all I know is the Memphis Audio PR10's sound very good. I also use old school amps like the MTX 2150x and love it, been in a few of my cars over the past 7 years and just purchased another one used on ebay for $40 and it can put out 450 watts rms at 4ohm. If it were me a nice 75 watts rms x 4 into 4 ohms should be good, then you would have 75 watts for the front components and could bridge in mono the other 2 channels to have 300 watts into 4 ohm for the sub. I can't comment too much on the latest amps, since I have all old school amps, but I almost bought a soundstream amp awhile back, some guys on another board said they were a great amp for the price. I looked at them and for the price they looked like a great deal.

**R&L'scamaro** · 02-07-2006, 04:03 AM

I'm wondering what size speakers are in the doors, and sail panels of my 98 Z28. Someone told me that it came with 6 3/4, in this thread yall are talking about 6 1/2's. Just wondering before i bought the wrong size. Thanks.

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by rotwiler

4)A single 4 channel amp is all you need to run (4) 6.5 compnents, so they only use 1 channel per speaker...You could save some money and run the front components off a 4 channel amp, run a sub off the other 2 channels...

Okay here is where I got a bit confused. the first part of your quote says to use a 4 channel amp to run 4 6.5 components, using 1 channel per speaker, which does makes sense to me, 1 channel = 1 speaker, and I have up front 2 mids and 2 tweeters, so thats good. But then the 2nd part you say to run the components again off a 4 channel amp, but then you say run a sub off the other two channels. Thats where I lost you

In a nutshell, I should use ONE 4 channel amp to power the 4 front door speakers (2 mids, 2 tweeters), ONE mono amp to power a single subwoofer in the back, and run the rear seat speakers with the head unit?

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 08:43 AM

Okay I re-read your post, Im assuming what you meant was that instead of using 1 channel per speaker, I could use one channel per set of components, where one channel of the amp powers both a tweeter and mid, and another channel powers the other two, leaving two channels open for a sub, is that correct?

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 08:54 AM

I don't have much time here since I am bored at work..but none-the-less I will say a quick bit. I would recommend doing something such as runing the front's off of the headunit. This will use 2 of the 4 channels. Then, use the remaining two channels to run the tweeters. Or, some componet sets will incorporate the tweeters and speakers into the same crossover, and you could usually get away with only using one channel. But off of the headunit, you will then have less power going to each. Now for the rear series, use the suggested 4-channel amp. Run the two rear speakers off of 2-channels of the amp. Then, as was said with the sub-power it from the remaining 2 channels. This is known as "bridging" the amp, and is very common. This all can vary SOOOO MUCH depending on the sub choice, ohm rating on the sub's voice coils, how many coils per sub, and the lowest safe/stable resistance that your amp is stable down to. Also, depending on how much quality you wanna really buy, and how much your budget is, really-you can run the speakers off of the headunit, and then get a 2channel/Mono block amp solely for the sub(s). I do not know much about engine/drivetrain, and that is why I read up on here to learn....but when it comes to car stereos-that is where my knowledge can shine (not to brag, but it feels good to actually know somehting-since I sure as hell don't get cams, etc.!!)

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 08:54 AM

Ok, so that did get longer than I had expected, but anyways-feel free to ask me any questions.

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by maverick_132

...I sure as hell don't get cams, etc.!!)

Haha yeah I hear you man, that makes two of us

Anyways, I can answer some of your questions. I plan on running everything 4 ohms, that seems standard and its easiest for me to do and understand. As for the sub, I am still deciding on that, will get to that in a bit.

I'd really like to run all 4 up front speakers with an amp, since they are closest to the ears, ya know? Now, the two components I've narrowed down to are the Polk DB6750, and the Alpine Type R's. So if any of those are capable of using 1 channel per two speakers, I can decide what to do as far as having 2 free channels or needing a mono amp for the sub. Heres some more q's:

1. When you look online, I generally use Crutchfield.com, how can you tell if a set of components will allow you to use 1 channel per set, as opposed to 1 channel per one speaker?
2. If you power 2 speakers (say a tweeter and a mid) with one amp channel, is there a loss of power or quality, even if the speakers are made to do that?
3. If I end up running a 4 channel amp, and using all 4 channels on the components, and then I add an additional mono amp for the sub, how will I know if my current head unit will be able to hook all that stuff up? What difference will it make if I get a 2 channel amp for the sub if I get a Dual Voice Coil sub? (I have a pioneer premier DEH 5500, btw)
4. I've recently learned about capacitors, I understand what they do, I also understand that amps have them built in. My plan is to have a sub running around 300-350 rms, and each component set can handle max 100 rms (polk) so lets say 75 rms per side = 150 wats rms, bringing the total with subs to about 450-500 watt rms (and I guess we can include the 20 or so per side that the head unit will push out to the rear seats). Now, seeing as how my car came with the 500 watt monsoon (I realize 500 watt is peak power, not RMS), will my charging system be able to handle all that, or will I need a high performance capacitor/hi output alternator?

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 09:25 AM

Okay,

Just called crutchfield, and I feel retarded

I learned that a component set, meaning 1 tweeter and 1 mid, is actually just ONE speaker, but it has the tweeter that can be relocated, so that makes this whole thing SO much more clear to me. So now I understand pretty much everything, I CAN, in fact, use a 4 channel amp to power both sets of components, and still have two channels left to power a single sub in the back. Man I feel like the smartest man alive right now haha! Hey you guys thanks for all the hlp tho, its much appreciated!

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 09:35 AM

Wait there is more!

Now I need to figure out which amp to buy. I want to run everything in 4 ohms, no question. So I will need an amp that will give me about 75 watts rms for the 2 sets of components up front, and then around 250 RMS for the sub. When you see this online:

4-channel car amplifier
75 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms (150 watts RMS x 4 at 2 ohms)
300 watts RMS x 1 (channels 3/4 only) in bridged mode

This means I can use channels 1 and 2 for my doors, giving me 75 watts RMS per door, and then I can 'bridge' channels 3 and 4 together as a single channel to power the sub, giving me 300 watts RMS?

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 09:40 AM

Glad your figuring the stuff you want out. I would however, advise you just look throuh using the 4 channell amp and planning to use 2 channels for the components, and the other two for the sub. Yes, it can easily be done, but that is going to be easier done at lower watt ratings. And you are not going to have the same OHM/indeendance ratings allowed by the 4-channel amp when you go to figure out the sub and hookup of the coils. That is where you can squeeze (ONLY THE SAFE LEVELS!) the most power out of the given amp by putting the lowest independance to it, thus causing the least resistance = most power. Plan your subs, 1 or 2 voice coils, and OHM per coil accordingly. As a last note, do not get the idea to run each of the voice coils from the sub (assuming you get a DVC) off of each one of the amp's 2 channels by itself. This CAN be done, but with all things in life that "can"-its just not a wise move to make.

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 09:42 AM

I just saw that you had posted more. Step the sub down to at least 2 ohms, you will get more power, and there's nothing bad about it. It just comes down to what I have said before - the amp must be stable down to 2ohm stereo, which is not all that low and almost any amp is gonna be

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 09:54 AM

you only want to run 300 watts which is achievable by the 4 channel amp, as you have reaearched and seen. I was saying that you aren't really gonna find one, at least not without breaking your bank, that will put out say 800+watts off of two of the channels. That is fine. Now, if I may ask - what amp(s) are you considerind, or which did those specs come from, and also what sub?

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 10:33 AM

Okay heres what I've looked at:

Sub: Polk/MOMO MM2104 600 watt peak; 50-300 RMS

Amp: Alpine MRV-F345, with the specs I listed earlier I just cut and pasted them from Crutchfield website.

It says that it can get 300 watts at 4ohm, and 150 watts at 2ohms, but isnt that virtually the same thing? Twice the power, but half the resistance? ohhh no no wait, it says its 150 watts by FOUR at 2ohm, not 150 watts by TWO at 4ohm. Okay, well 150 watts at 2 ohm is too much for the components, so how would that work? And how to you determine 4ohm or 2ohm, is it in the way you wire it or is it a switch or button or what?

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 10:46 AM

Damn, I need help

Okay, with a four channel amp that is stable at 2 ohms, can you wire 2 channels at 4ohms and then the other two at 2 ohms with the same amp? Also, does the subwoofer need to state that it can handle 2 ohms or can they all do that, just the amp needs to handle it? Im considering many more options now, like a 12" sub instead of a 10", I see most of the decent 12" are all dual voice coil, so Im guessing that complicates things even more. Ahhh!!

**rotwiler** · 02-07-2006, 11:25 AM

It's the amp that needs to be stable to 2ohms. Some amps are only stable to 2ohm in stereo mode. You would probably want a dvc 4+4 to see a 2ohm load. A 12 would be hard to find a stealthbox type setup and you would be taking up space. You may want to get a single mono block amp like a MTX for the sub and a 2 channel amp for your front mids. I haven't done a seperate amp for the mids in my car, the Infinity replacements for my stock ones suite me well. I had some guys in my car club with 98-02 Camaro's sit in my car with only the 62.7i's up front 2 10's and a kenwood deck(rest stock speakers) and they were amazed at how good it sounded. I even offered to give 1 of the guys a front door speaker, since his was blown and he declined and said he was buying the 62.7i's.

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 11:40 AM

Hehe good stuff man. Yeah I've been researching this all morning, since about 7:30 so I've been fine tuning my decisions constantly. I have decided to go with a 2 channel amp for the components, and then a mono amp for the sub, keeps it simple and now I can get a bigger power handling sub and not have to worry about overdoing the components.

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 11:59 AM

rotwiler said kinda what I did - it is best to have a amp dedicate to your sub, and then if you feel the headunit is not sufficient, then have another small amp for the components. I do think that you can get away with the 1 amp runing both as long as you stay with a low power sub. The 300ish you quoted earlier can prolly be done, but if your thinking you want more boom, and are considering a bigger sub setup, that will complicate getting an amp to run both. As for the sub, they come most commonly with 2 or 4 ohm coils, but you can end up with some brands/models such as audiobahn that will use 3 ohm, etc. coils. You can then either wire you subs voics coils in parrell, or series, which will both yield a different final resistance (ohm) level by the time it hits the amp. Rotwiler mentioned getting a mono block amp, which is nice for many high power applications because they are stable down to 1 ohm, and many are (claimed) to be stable down to as low as 1/2ohm, which will really net the power for ya. Your components are most likely gonna want to be wired to 4 ohm loads, and as for the sub, get coils that will allow you to wire it to 2 ohm if you get that amp. I will give you all of the possible wiring options and resulting resostance levels for using 1/2/3/4 subs and then 1 or 2 coils, as well as having 2 or 4 ohm coils. I'm not sure that that makes sense, but I know what I am trying to say

**maverick_132** · 02-07-2006, 12:01 PM

hey, what exactly are the components rated at?

**sketterman** · 02-07-2006, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by maverick_132

hey, what exactly are the components rated at?

The components are rated at 300 watts peak, with 10-100 RMS. They are a set of Polk db6750. Im gonna get a 2 channel amp to power them, a Profile AP600, its 100x2 RMS @ 4ohms, so that will be perfect for the components.

As for the sub, I decided on a Rockford Fosgate P310D2, which is a DVC, 2 ohms per coil, 800 watt peak, 100-400 RMS, and a mono amp to power that is gonna be an Alpine MRP M450, 400x1 @ 2 ohms.

With the components and 2 channel amp being 4 ohm, hooking them up should be a easy as connecting wires together, correct?

But since the mono amp is single channel, and the sub is DVC, can they be wired to work with optimum performance?