Suspension Upgrades

**EZGTO** · 03-05-2010, 09:53 AM

I'm interested in upgrading the suspension on my goat. I mainly use my car as a DD and just want it to handle and break better. Plus I'd like the tires to last longer too.

I'm pretty set on doing the Front End Pedders install that Sarge wrote up. My question though is, I was also considering purchasing the GTO Street 1 Kit in addtion to:

GTO EPC27 Front Sway Bar Bushings
GTO EP3451 Sway Bar Front Link Urethane Bushing

Should I just go with the three parts in the write up first and not worry about the GTO Street 1 kit?

And I was looking at the GTO Energy Suspension Master Bushings Set. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the Energy Suspension kit is lacking the GTO Caster Radius Rod, but that's it.

http://thmotorsports.com/energy_susp...se=3.18134R-03

Has anyone installed any Energy Suspension upgrades?

Thanks in advance for the help.

**derbs** · 03-05-2010, 11:22 AM

Don't waste your money on putting bushing in the swaybar links. there are solid links from other vendors out there for a little over $100. The energy poly kit is a damn good kit for the money as far as radius rod bushings lovells and white line are just the same as that pedders over priced shit.

**Sarge** · 03-05-2010, 04:00 PM

I would just go the front end parts called out in the write up...that is where the performance comes from anyway....

**derbs** · 03-05-2010, 04:24 PM

performance outta just changing bushings????? far from it. Your performance would come from shocks/struts, springs and better brakes. Simple poly bushings will do very little.

**Sarge** · 03-05-2010, 04:31 PM

LOL....define performance as it relates to suspension mods friend....

**derbs** · 03-05-2010, 04:58 PM

You car won't handle or brake any better then stock with just changing out bushings.

**PartsGedder** · 03-05-2010, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by derbs

performance outta just changing bushings????? far from it. Your performance would come from shocks/struts, springs and better brakes. Simple poly bushings will do very little.

The OE rubber bushes were designed for reduced noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH). The OE front radius rod bushes are filled with fluid in between the voids in the rubber. When the fluid leakes out, all you have is the rubber that was left behind to hold the radius rod in place. Do a 5 mph brake check. Have someone drive the car at 5 mph and stomp on the brakes and hold it. The wheel should stay pretty close to neutral (where it is while driving straight) if the radius rod bushes are good. If the radius rod bush is failed, the wheel will actually move back into the wheel well. Then let off the brakes and watch the wheel spring forward. The radius rod bush is compressed to it's limits allowing the wheel to move back into the wheel well. When the brake is release, the wheel will roll forward to neutral. The lower control arm(which connects to the front knuckle and hub) is connected to the front frame by the radius rod. Replacing the OE rubber bush with a urethane bush keeps the rod in place, keeps the LCA in place, which keeps the wheel in place under braking. In short, when you upgrade the radius rod bush to urethane, the wheel is anchored by firm mounting points and begins to stop. I've replaced a number of rr bushes and each time, the braking was firmer and more responsive.

The rear subframe has rubber bushes as well, again for NVH. The rubber subframe bushes are like putting a fence post in jello or a rubber handle on a hammer. You stomp on the gas and wait for the rubber to flex to it's limits before the chassis firms up enough to respond. The urethane firms up the mounting points of the rear chassis. The firmer the mounts, the better the response. The chassis doesn't move in the mounts and stay put and the power gets to the wheels. Wheel hop is disasterous for the rear IRS. It tears up diffs, wrecks stubs and a whole bunch of other bad struff. The rubber lets the chassis move in the mounting points, the chassis moves and it contributes to wheel hop. Firm up the mounts, the rear chassis doesn't move as much and the whel hop is reduced. I'm not saying the rear subframe bushes and diff insterts are a magic fix for wheel hop, but they do go a long way in reducing it.

Performance is about getting the car to handle and hook up. Step on the brake and the car should slow down, not wait until the rubber compreses to it's limits and then keep the wheel in place, then slow down. Stomp on it and the rear subframe should stay in place to help get the power to the ground, again not flex to its maximun, then keep the chassis in place where ever it ends up. Urethane mounts are far beter than the OE rubber. Yes dampers and coils help, but the chassis will move if the rubber failed.

**derbs** · 03-05-2010, 05:18 PM

putting new bushings in the sway bar end links are worthless. I wouldn't follow that write up he posted get the energy kit and some lovells rr bushings don't listen to a guy that puts 2 stroke oil in his gas to save .0000002 miles per gallon in his cars.

**JonB** · 03-05-2010, 05:47 PM

That kit actually looks like a pretty good deal. I'm sure it would get bashed as being crap on most forums as pedders is god on most gto forums. I would consider that kit if I had not already put a bunch of pedders bushing on my car. I'd order it and get some RR bushings and call it a day.

**EZGTO** · 03-05-2010, 06:21 PM

I appreciate the help guys. Any tips on getting the alignment done or just go with the standard OE alignment for the goat? Again, I don't plan on going to the track and racing.

I saw this thread where a guy actually got his front end aligned per the Pedder's specs. Is this necessary for just changing a few bushings?

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356278

**mark21742** · 03-05-2010, 10:38 PM

I have nothing against Pedders, I used their RR bushings and tierod ends, but also went with the Energy Suspension full kit because of the price...I did all the bushings at the same time and honestly afterwards it felt like a completely different car and handels 100 times better, better brakes feel and no more "thump" from the rear member hitting the body.

Its amazing when you pull the stock bushings out and sit them next to the new poly ones.

**qwkgto** · 03-06-2010, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by mark21742

I have nothing against Pedders, I used their RR bushings and tierod ends, but also went with the Energy Suspension full kit because of the price...I did all the bushings at the same time and honestly afterwards it felt like a completely different car and handels 100 times better, better brakes feel and no more "thump" from the rear member hitting the body.

Its amazing when you pull the stock bushings out and sit them next to the new poly ones.

Humm did not know energy suspension made them for our car,what kit did you get,only ones I have now are the BMR ones that came with my frame ties,and the harrop has two or three,otherwise my car has all stock suspension,I am considering doing the front,my front tires are wearing on the insides,so something needs done,had the damn thing aligned three times since ive owned it.to try and stop this,struts dont rub .

**Sarge** · 03-06-2010, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by derbs

putting new bushings in the sway bar end links are worthless. I wouldn't follow that write up he posted get the energy kit and some lovells rr bushings don't listen to a guy that puts 2 stroke oil in his gas to save .0000002 miles per gallon in his cars.

Got a bug up your ass do you?
If you can read and comprehend you will find I never advocated the oil exercise solely for the purpose of MPG savings. The benefits are lubrication of the fueling system for longevity and proper performance. The side effects of course were cleaning that resulted in many seeing better gas mileage.
But I know many trolls struggle with reading and comprehension.....

**Sarge** · 03-06-2010, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by PartsGedder

The OE rubber bushes were designed for reduced noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH). The OE front radius rod bushes are filled with fluid in between the voids in the rubber. When the fluid leakes out, all you have is the rubber that was left behind to hold the radius rod in place. Do a 5 mph brake check. Have someone drive the car at 5 mph and stomp on the brakes and hold it. The wheel should stay pretty close to neutral (where it is while driving straight) if the radius rod bushes are good. If the radius rod bush is failed, the wheel will actually move back into the wheel well. Then let off the brakes and watch the wheel spring forward. The radius rod bush is compressed to it's limits allowing the wheel to move back into the wheel well. When the brake is release, the wheel will roll forward to neutral. The lower control arm(which connects to the front knuckle and hub) is connected to the front frame by the radius rod. Replacing the OE rubber bush with a urethane bush keeps the rod in place, keeps the LCA in place, which keeps the wheel in place under braking. In short, when you upgrade the radius rod bush to urethane, the wheel is anchored by firm mounting points and begins to stop. I've replaced a number of rr bushes and each time, the braking was firmer and more responsive.

The rear subframe has rubber bushes as well, again for NVH. The rubber subframe bushes are like putting a fence post in jello or a rubber handle on a hammer. You stomp on the gas and wait for the rubber to flex to it's limits before the chassis firms up enough to respond. The urethane firms up the mounting points of the rear chassis. The firmer the mounts, the better the response. The chassis doesn't move in the mounts and stay put and the power gets to the wheels. Wheel hop is disasterous for the rear IRS. It tears up diffs, wrecks stubs and a whole bunch of other bad struff. The rubber lets the chassis move in the mounting points, the chassis moves and it contributes to wheel hop. Firm up the mounts, the rear chassis doesn't move as much and the whel hop is reduced. I'm not saying the rear subframe bushes and diff insterts are a magic fix for wheel hop, but they do go a long way in reducing it.

Performance is about getting the car to handle and hook up. Step on the brake and the car should slow down, not wait until the rubber compreses to it's limits and then keep the wheel in place, then slow down. Stomp on it and the rear subframe should stay in place to help get the power to the ground, again not flex to its maximun, then keep the chassis in place where ever it ends up. Urethane mounts are far beter than the OE rubber. Yes dampers and coils help, but the chassis will move if the rubber failed.

Well said Dan.....Performance comes in many shapes and sizes as normal people realize....then you have the troll internet keyboard warriors ....if I get an increase in steering feedback....that is an increase in performance....if I get crisper stopping....that is a performance enhancement......but very well said Dan.....

**mark21742** · 03-06-2010, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by qwkgto

Humm did not know energy suspension made them for our car,what kit did you get,only ones I have now are the BMR ones that came with my frame ties,and the harrop has two or three,otherwise my car has all stock suspension,I am considering doing the front,my front tires are wearing on the insides,so something needs done,had the damn thing aligned three times since ive owned it.to try and stop this,struts dont rub .

They have a master kit that comes with everything but the front RR bushings and the top strut bushing

I have everything under the car except for the top strut bushing (which I do need)

**qwkgto** · 03-06-2010, 04:08 AM

Id like to add some thoughts to this post,I dont have much other then what I posted in a post above done as far as suspension,and ive been running 10s for three years and last year car went 9s and 1.5 60ft times off the foot brake and drag radials,I do have drag bags,yea thats a wonderous mod,I also did the polly mounts on one of my other cars it was 25 years old and some of the GM rubber mounts were crushed in half,I did a complete frame off on that car,of course it made a diffrence,the car seems to ride stiffer and the ride quality was way firmer.this was all done on a 1970 monte and that car with a big block and 12 bolt rear end only outweighted the GTO by 40 pounds.I am not sold on the overly expensive bushing,when in need yes replace them,maybe I need more proof that they will actually inprove my car and proof they are worth the extra $,how many cars, for say, GTOs have this that I have raced many,compared to their 60 ft times im doing pretty damn good,maybe its just my mad driving skills..GTO1 has had alot of of the Peddlers stuff done to his car and his car leaves way better then most of or I should say any of the other GTOs ive ran or seen in person run at the track .I realise the HP my car has but one would think that would make it harder for the stock suspension to do its job especially with those GM rubber bushings..IDK....maybe someone way smarter then me can explain in laymans terms how this could be???

**mark21742** · 03-06-2010, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Sarge

Got a bug up your ass do you?
If you can read and comprehend you will find I never advocated the oil exercise solely for the purpose of MPG savings. The benefits are lubrication of the fueling system for longevity and proper performance. The side effects of course were cleaning that resulted in many seeing better gas mileage.
But I know many trolls struggle with reading and comprehension.....

a big plus on the 2 stroke oil is less knock due to no carbon buildup

**mark21742** · 03-06-2010, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by PartsGedder
The OE rubber bushes were designed for reduced noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH).

this was built into the GTO almost as a DEtune to improve the ride quality because the Monero (GTO) was built to compete with the BMWs.....basicly taking a realitively good suspension and making it sloppy to make it feel more "cushy"

I have seen comparisions of the Pedders and others and I will say that Pedders is top tier and out lasted others, but my wallet just wasn't that deep at the time.

**EZGTO** · 03-06-2010, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by mark21742

I have nothing against Pedders, I used their RR bushings and tierod ends, but also went with the Energy Suspension full kit because of the price...I did all the bushings at the same time and honestly afterwards it felt like a completely different car and handels 100 times better, better brakes feel and no more "thump" from the rear member hitting the body.

Its amazing when you pull the stock bushings out and sit them next to the new poly ones.

Mark, That's good info man! I'm going to go with the Pedders RR and the Energy kit. What did you do for an alignment afterwards? I guess I need to read through all of Sarge's thread again to see what he did.

Anyway, thanks to all again! This is a great board with good people!!!

EZ

**derbs** · 03-06-2010, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sarge

Well said Dan.....Performance comes in many shapes and sizes as normal people realize....then you have the troll internet keyboard warriors ....if I get an increase in steering feedback....that is an increase in performance....if I get crisper stopping....that is a performance enhancement......but very well said Dan.....

How much did you have to pay him.