Seattle to raise minimum wage

[0rion]

What's your take on it? I don't know enough about economics to know the whole impact. I just know that the current minimum of $7.25/hr is laughable at best as far as making any kind of living. That works out to about $700/month take home on 40 hours. How in the hell does anyone live on that? Even at $15/hr you're not really living but just surviving. I have a feeling though that it gets much more complicated and I'm sure there are 2 entrenched sides by party vote that can tell you why the world will end if you disagree with their opinion. Small business owners probably have more to worry about than anyone so I can see some impact there. Big companies like McDonalds will bitch the most but feel less impact from it I bet since they made $8.5 billion last year as a company.


UPDATE 3-Seattle approves hike in minimum wage to $15 per hour | Reuters

[CJREX]

Minimum wage is not designed to be a living wage, it is designed to be a starting point.

If just raising the minimum wage would help, why not make it $50 an hour? That's $100k per year, a decent living wage.

The answer is because now your Big Mac would cost $20 and your combo would be $30, just to cover the added wage expenses of every employee.

A business is not in business to generate jobs, it is in business to generate profit. When it does generate profit it can then generate more jobs.

If your career goal is to attain a job that pays minimum wage, that's a pretty easy target to hit. But if someone is too preoccupied/apathetic to better themselves, raising the minimum wage is not going to magically solve their problems since they would likely simply blow any additional income on fluff.

The bottom line is that a company will pay you what you are worth to them (unless you are a politician). They won't pay someone $100k per year if that someone does not generate $100k+ of income.

[theorangeguy]

the costs will be passed onto the consumer...increasing labor costs just causes prices to go up. Pretty simple formula...

If you are paying somebody $5 a year...and you make $8 a year in revenue you profit $3. If you are then forced to pay the same employee $10 a year, you have to either A.) let the employee go or B.) raise prices to get your profits back.

If walmart was forced to pay all of its minimum wage employees $15 an hour they would lose all profits. Fact...

[wileyCoyote]

CJREX pretty much nailed it... now, seattle is soon to have the highest unemployment in the nation...

[0rion]

Minimum wage is not designed to be a living wage, it is designed to be a starting point.

If just raising the minimum wage would help, why not make it $50 an hour? That's $100k per year, a decent living wage.

The answer is because now your Big Mac would cost $20 and your combo would be $30, just to cover the added wage expenses of every employee.

A business is not in business to generate jobs, it is in business to generate profit. When it does generate profit it can then generate more jobs.

If your career goal is to attain a job that pays minimum wage, that's a pretty easy target to hit. But if someone is too preoccupied/apathetic to better themselves, raising the minimum wage is not going to magically solve their problems since they would likely simply blow any additional income on fluff.

The bottom line is that a company will pay you what you are worth to them (unless you are a politician). They won't pay someone $100k per year if that someone does not generate $100k+ of income.

good post

[KahanaReef]

Dennis nailed it.

These jobs were once for teenagers and young adults, you know, age 16, working while going to high school to make a few extra bucks for car insurance, gas, clothes, weekends, savings, whatever. Minimum wage is not for those trying to raise a family. Minimum wage jobs are for getting the experience you need in the work force while you move up to better paying jobs. Or, for those that have retired and want or need to supplement their fixed income.

We have too many 30 somethings and older working fulltime at fast food joints because they never learned how to do anything else.

[67CamaroRSSS]

Minimum wage is not designed to be a living wage, it is designed to be a starting point.

If just raising the minimum wage would help, why not make it $50 an hour? That's $100k per year, a decent living wage.

The answer is because now your Big Mac would cost $20 and your combo would be $30, just to cover the added wage expenses of every employee.

A business is not in business to generate jobs, it is in business to generate profit. When it does generate profit it can then generate more jobs.

If your career goal is to attain a job that pays minimum wage, that's a pretty easy target to hit. But if someone is too preoccupied/apathetic to better themselves, raising the minimum wage is not going to magically solve their problems since they would likely simply blow any additional income on fluff.

The bottom line is that a company will pay you what you are worth to them (unless you are a politician). They won't pay someone $100k per year if that someone does not generate $100k+ of income.

I hope that everybody notices dudes finger position in the last panel...

FWIW, that's Ben Bernanke, Chairman of the Fed when things went to shit...

[CJREX]

...
We have too many 30 somethings and older working fulltime at fast food joints because they never learned how to do anything else...

And unfortunately a lot of those will go out and buy a very expensive car instead of getting worthwhile training/education to get a better job.

Drive a beater. It won't hurt your status. And a shiny new car won't improve it beyond the shallow folks who are impressed by that sort of thing.

And BTW, the shiny new car becomes an old used car as soon as you drive it home.

When someone needs instant gratification, that someone will never get far because the next must-have item will appear much sooner than a worthwhile skill.

[0rion]

Dennis nailed it.

These jobs were once for teenagers and young adults, you know, age 16, working while going to high school to make a few extra bucks for car insurance, gas, clothes, weekends, savings, whatever. Minimum wage is not for those trying to raise a family. Minimum wage jobs are for getting the experience you need in the work force while you move up to better paying jobs. Or, for those that have retired and want or need to supplement their fixed income.

We have too many 30 somethings and older working fulltime at fast food joints because they never learned how to do anything else.

see....my thinking is that the work force has changed. No longer are the days of working at a starter job and moving up. Kids go to college on a loan and mom/dad's dime and then graduate straight into the corporate world. If you go into Mcdonalds or Wally World now you see a large majority of adults working there. It's people getting 2nd jobs to pay for kids college or retirees trying to make ends meet. Have you ever noticed the service you get in these franchise type places? It almost always sucks. Why wouldn't it? You're paying people nothing to do a shitty job. Why not pay them more, pick your quality of employee more carefully, give better service, and make more money from return customers?

[CJREX]

...Why not pay them more, pick your quality of employee more carefully, give better service, and make more money from return customers?

Because when a burger combo at McDonald's costs $15 there won't be any return customers.

I agree the workforce has changed and you do see a lot more older people working these jobs now.

Part of the reason is that right now it's an employers market. The employer can be choosy because there are so many vying for the same position now.

That means they can pick the best suited for the position they are looking to fill. The rest go do whatever they can, even if it means flipping burgers.

Unfortunately, that also means that some of the very best can't even get hired at McDonald's because Mickey D doesn't want to invest in training an over qualified individual who will be out the door as soon as a better opportunity knocks.

The days of getting a raise or promotion simply for showing up every day are gone. You have to be a valuable asset or you are a liability.

[0rion]

Because when a burger combo at McDonald's costs $15 there won't be any return customers.

I agree the workforce has changed and you do see a lot more older people working these jobs now.

Part of the reason is that right now it's an employers market. The employer can be choosy because there are so many vying for the same position now.

That means they can pick the best suited for the position they are looking to fill. The rest go do whatever they can, even if it means flipping burgers.

Unfortunately, that also means that some of the very best can't even get hired at McDonald's because Mickey D doesn't want to invest in training an over qualified individual who will be out the door as soon as a better opportunity knocks.

The days of getting a raise or promotion simply for showing up every day are gone. You have to be a valuable asset or you are a liability.

I'll tell you upfront I know jack shit about any of this.....I just have thoughts and questions about it. Explain to me why a value meal will be $15 from giving someone a raise and yet beef prices and delivery costs have more than doubled nationwide in the last few years and yet menu prices are relatively the same? I think that's a scare tactic the companies use to combat the drive for better wages.

[CJREX]

Any time the cost of business goes up it is passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices or less quantity for the same price.

Sometimes it may be in lower quality for the same price depending on the industry.

Regardless of where it is cut, you can be sure that if initial costs go up, the business won't lose money because of it.

Most people don't realize the true cost of running a business. It's not just salary.

Building rent, utilities, insurance, monitoring, legal fees, local and federal taxes, all these and more have to come out of what the business takes in.

These costs would likely shock the average consumer as businesses are favorite targets of taxes and liability lawsuits.

[LimeNine]

devaluing the dollar ...
I'm also not an economist but devaluing the dollar only hurts our society
Our Gov continues to print $65billion everyday to pay interest on loans to foreign investors
The dollar is on it's way out of favor as the worlds monetary device..
Other nations will continue to invest in raw goods (commodities like copper, silver etc etc)
This higher cost for raw materials added with high cost of employment = doom

How long was the U. Ks "Sterling" the worlds monetary device? (150years) - until parliament "devalued" it in the mid-seventies...economy spiraled Down

[theorangeguy]

Because when a burger combo at McDonald's costs $15 there won't be any return customers.

I agree the workforce has changed and you do see a lot more older people working these jobs now.

Part of the reason is that right now it's an employers market. The employer can be choosy because there are so many vying for the same position now.

That means they can pick the best suited for the position they are looking to fill. The rest go do whatever they can, even if it means flipping burgers.

Unfortunately, that also means that some of the very best can't even get hired at McDonald's because Mickey D doesn't want to invest in training an over qualified individual who will be out the door as soon as a better opportunity knocks.

The days of getting a raise or promotion simply for showing up every day are gone. You have to be a valuable asset or you are a liability.

I got 2 promotions with my last company...didnt get a raise with either one of them. Its par for the course these days...

[KahanaReef]

see....my thinking is that the work force has changed. No longer are the days of working at a starter job and moving up. Kids go to college on a loan and mom/dad's dime and then graduate straight into the corporate world. If you go into Mcdonalds or Wally World now you see a large majority of adults working there. It's people getting 2nd jobs to pay for kids college or retirees trying to make ends meet. Have you ever noticed the service you get in these franchise type places? It almost always sucks. Why wouldn't it? You're paying people nothing to do a shitty job. Why not pay them more, pick your quality of employee more carefully, give better service, and make more money from return customers?

I don’t think it works quite that way. Many of those people are being paid low wages because they are not worth a higher wage simply because they never applied themselves and have no desire to do so. But you’re right, the workforce has changed. Most of these minimum wage jobs don’t require quality employees. Many no longer require employees at all.

At 16 my first tax paying job was at Whataburger. I wanted a car. My employable skillset at the time started me off at the grill and then I made my way up to cashier. Being a cashier taught me skills I needed for handling money, counting back change, banking, etc… as well as customer service. Those were skills that I would continue to use in future positions like Office Manager or Construction Estimator just to name two.

Today, cash registers do all that for you. It's no longer a position to move up to. So, any idiot can give back the change the register tells them too. How is that job worth more than minimum wage? You don’t even need to know how to use a register, math or a keyboard anymore. You just glide items across a bar code reader. Or at a fast food joint, they have food pictures on the keys that once had numbers… No skills required or learned to take with you there. That makes a pretty good case for more and more stores using self-checkout systems. No minimum wage employee necessary at all. So why pay skill-less people more money to do a job that a machine can do by itself and without an attitude?

Raising the minimum wage will only create higher unemployment rates and put more people on permanent welfare. People are in business to make money. There really is no other reason to own a business. We are on the road to machines and robots taking over many of these minimum wage jobs as it is. People complaining that they want more money for positions that are easily replaced my machines and robots, as well as being more cost effective for the business owner, will only turn themselves into unemployable people. Then what are they going to do? They don’t have the skills to move up to a better position. Or what of the retired person that can't make ends meet but are not capable of working full time, or those that are passed over for their younger counterpart in their chosen profession? Welfare? Homelessness? There is no where else to go for some people.

Look at China. They have a largest workforce in the world. The lowest wages and some of the worst working conditions. Yet they are buying robots like crazy to replace that workforce.

Raising the minimum wage to $15.00 will ultimately hasten the inevitable. You'll see a robot standing where you used to at the grocery store, fast food joint, Home Depot, the DMV, etc... It's already happening. And the rest of the employable, tax paying working class community, otherwise known as the middle class, will be paying for it as well. As for those minimum wage workers that are otherwise unemployable? They get to know what it's like to live on state aid and government assistance for the rest of their natural lives.

[wileyCoyote]

...the sluggish economy and the anemic GDP growth we've been experiencing for years now isn't helping...

[raynor139]

Seattle does have one of the top five cost of living in the us. Even at 15 an hour it will take 2 people to rent a single bedroom apt and they will struggle at that. Average 1 bedroom in Seattle is 1400 a month. I was offered a position there recently and after seeing the cost of living the little raise I would get would not offset the the absurd amount it cost to live there.

[raynor139]

see....my thinking is that the work force has changed. No longer are the days of working at a starter job and moving up. Kids go to college on a loan and mom/dad's dime and then graduate straight into the corporate world. If you go into Mcdonalds or Wally World now you see a large majority of adults working there. It's people getting 2nd jobs to pay for kids college or retirees trying to make ends meet. Have you ever noticed the service you get in these franchise type places? It almost always sucks. Why wouldn't it? You're paying people nothing to do a shitty job. Why not pay them more, pick your quality of employee more carefully, give better service, and make more money from return customers?

I don’t think it works quite that way. Many of those people are being paid low wages because they are not worth a higher wage simply because they never applied themselves and have no desire to do so. But you’re right, the workforce has changed. Most of these minimum wage jobs don’t require quality employees. Many no longer require employees at all.

At 16 my first tax paying job was at Whataburger. I wanted a car. My employable skillset at the time started me off at the grill and then I made my way up to cashier. Being a cashier taught me skills I needed for handling money, counting back change, banking, etc… as well as customer service. Those were skills that I would continue to use in future positions like Office Manager or Construction Estimator just to name two.

Today, cash registers do all that for you. It's no longer a position to move up to. So, any idiot can give back the change the register tells them too. How is that job worth more than minimum wage? You don’t even need to know how to use a register, math or a keyboard anymore. You just glide items across a bar code reader. Or at a fast food joint, they have food pictures on the keys that once had numbers… No skills required or learned to take with you there. That makes a pretty good case for more and more stores using self-checkout systems. No minimum wage employee necessary at all. So why pay skill-less people more money to do a job that a machine can do by itself and without an attitude?

Raising the minimum wage will only create higher unemployment rates and put more people on permanent welfare. People are in business to make money. There really is no other reason to own a business. We are on the road to machines and robots taking over many of these minimum wage jobs as it is. People complaining that they want more money for positions that are easily replaced my machines and robots, as well as being more cost effective for the business owner, will only turn themselves into unemployable people. Then what are they going to do? They don’t have the skills to move up to a better position. Or what of the retired person that can't make ends meet but are not capable of working full time, or those that are passed over for their younger counterpart in their chosen profession? Welfare? Homelessness? There is no where else to go for some people.

Look at China. They have a largest workforce in the world. The lowest wages and some of the worst working conditions. Yet they are buying robots like crazy to replace that workforce.

Raising the minimum wage to $15.00 will ultimately hasten the inevitable. You'll see a robot standing where you used to at the grocery store, fast food joint, Home Depot, the DMV, etc... It's already happening. And the rest of the employable, tax paying working class community, otherwise known as the middle class, will be paying for it as well. As for those minimum wage workers that are otherwise unemployable? They get to know what it's like to live on state aid and government assistance for the rest of their natural lives.

Actually this could have happened years ago. But a robot can't up sell and many retail chains need up selling to make it. When I was at target we wouldn't install self check outs for the reason that they couldn't up sell their red cards. Let me just say red cards turned better profits for them then many of their departments. If my cashiers didn't get so many a week they were written up or fired. Plus studies show even though people will bitch to no end about cashiers they want to interact with people during checkout. For some people this all the interaction they get in a day.

[theorangeguy]

Actually this could have happened years ago. But a robot can't up sell and many retail chains need up selling to make it. When I was at target we wouldn't install self check outs for the reason that they couldn't up sell their red cards. Let me just say red cards turned better profits for them then many of their departments. If my cashiers didn't get so many a week they were written up or fired. Plus studies show even though people will bitch to no end about cashiers they want to interact with people during checkout. For some people this all the interaction they get in a day.

Sounds a lot like bestbuy...I was a GM for bestbuy for around 5years and managed a districts worth of labor, revenue, and P&L stuff. When the economy tanked we got REALLY heavy into credit card applications for a few reasons. 1.) is because Chase, HSBC, etc "whoever was backing the bestbuy card at that time" would pay something like $25 per app "when the economy was at its worst it was like $40 per app" whether it was approved or not...plus it lowered your operational costs because they wouldnt charge you per transaction like Amex, visa, and mastercard would. 2.) if you have a BestBuy card you were roughly 70% more likely to come back and shop because you had a line of credit with us...im sure the same goes for Target, walmart, etc...

Considering that most retail locations either break even or lose money when they sell a laptop, the credit card application could/would put them $25 to the positive...which is also where the "up sell" piece that you were mentioning comes into play...if you are selling products that you make $0 on "pc hardware" you need an actual person to add on software, warranty, mouse, cables, etc to make up the difference.

And just in case anybody didnt know it...pretty much all retail stores lose money selling computers. Just throwing that out there...

Cell Phones and cables are by far the most margin rich product that anybody sells right now.

[SMWS6TA]

I personally HATE the self check outs. Damn computers make me want to punch them every time it doesn't register enough weight. Not to mention never enough room to put 20 items on. I avoid using them as much as I can. My wife on the other hand loves 'em. I know for every one of them that's 3 cashiers not hired or let go. My 2nd job was a cashier and I know how hard most of them work. Nothing so satisfying like having a crabby customer that is hell bent on taking it out on you just because their day is a


Seattle has just made it very easy for buisiness to let go dead weight in ppl or locations. Dennis nails most of it. There are other factors that greatly affect the economy. Labor wages are a big part but not the biggest slice of the pie.

What's killing the economy are these BS regs on the energy sector, the massive devaluing of the dollar and ppl in positions that have no idea on how to run business let alone even own one at any time and yet make major policy decisions on how the economy is ran.