I am now convinced

[Sarge]

I have kept my big mouth shut for awhile until I could develop some decent "proof" of what I suspected. Mobil1 is no longer a 100% Group IV Synthetic PAO basestock. This all started post Katrina when Mobil1 announced it's PAO plant was whacked hard. Virgin Oil Analysis began popping up on various boards refelcting Group III basestocks with drops of GroupIV PAO's. Pennzoil Platinum did the same thing....went to a Group III basestock in November 2005 by the way. And I do watch many boards and forums outside of BITOG.....(which has turned into a zoo by the way).....I read the corporate reports of Exxon-Mobil and Shell.....so I research and get my info from more than the Internet and VOA's....
I wrote a letter to Mobil asking if their basestock was still 100% Group IV and got a "canned response" like others word for word by the way....
" Mobil 1 motor oils are 100% synthetic, utilizing the PAO basestock and proprietary blend of additives that is tailored specifically for each viscosity. Mobil does not discuss specifics about our motor oil formulations."

You want to know why I have an issue with that statement? Because Mobil Pre-Katrina always said and advertised they used Group IV basestock exclusively. "Utilizing the PAO basestock...." is not the same as "Exclusively using the PAO basestock..."......that is a change for sure....the other thing that has me convinced Mobil1 is now just another synthetic "blend" is they are now advertising they utilize "Synthetic Technology"....
So.....Mobil in their Corporate Report admit to disaster at the plant that made the PAO basestock ( which Amsoil buys there by the way). VOA's clearly show a reformulation with Group III showing up. Mobil has changed the way they "express themselves" now. Mobil1 now sells it for like $5-$6 bucks a quart for a Synthetic Blend oil. And that is a rip off as they are now just as guilty as those they sued and litigated against years ago.
I remain an advocate that Mobil1 is good oil. However it is very very overpriced for what it is now. Lot better oils out there for less money for sure.

[Mr. Luos]

I get my Mobil 1 for $22. 5 quarts.


Although yeah...what a rip. Good info Sarge.

[Sarge]

And a little "guide book" and history for those who do not live on engineering/chemist forums for "fun"

All synthetics are not equal. The API has not come out and defined what is "synthetic", but rather, classified oils into five major groups.

Group I base oils are the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no uniformity. While some automotive oils use these stocks, they are generally used in less demanding applications.

Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils. They have fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation stability, wear prevention and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity. Group II base stocks are what the majority of engine oils are made from. 3000 mile oil changes are the norm.

Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of all the mineral oil stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. By definition they are considered a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic and semi-synthetic lubricants. Group III is used in the vast majority of full synthetics or synthetic blends. They are superior to group I and II oils but still have limitations. Some formulations are designed for extended oil changes. Amsoil XM Oils, Castrol Syntec and many others fall into this category.

Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are a chemically engineered synthesized basestocks. PAOs offer excellent stability, molecular uniformity and performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. Amsoil Synthetics and Mobil 1 primarily use group IV basestocks. PAO is a much more expensive basestock than the highly refined petroleum oil basestock of Group III. (Can you say profit margin! Grab your ankles and sing along!)

Group V base oils are also chemically engineered stocks that do not full into any of the categories previously mentioned. Typical examples of group V stocks are Esters, polyglycols and silicone. Redline uses an ester basestock.

In the 90s, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a Group III, highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil, instead of a chemically synthesized (group IV or V) basestock. Due to the amount that the mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided in Castrol's favor. As a result, any oil containing this highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can be marketed as a synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock (polyalphaolefin or PAO) is much more expensive than the Group III basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins.

[SSmoky01]

So what oil are you gonna run now Sarge? "Lot better oils out there for less money for sure." What oils are you speaking of?

[third_shift|studios]

i figured that me being 100% italian justifies putting extra virgin olive oil in my car. My uncles love it b/c it smells like a tuscan kitchen when i rev it up

[SLIM_DURST]

I think there's the same scandal for baby oil, and canola oil

[94z28l]

so what about like royal purple and redline and others?

[86 IROC-Z]

I like using oil that cleans up easily off the garage floor...

[GOT1GOAT]

Good to know. Thanx for the 411 Sarge.

[Sarge]

So what oil are you gonna run now Sarge? "Lot better oils out there for less money for sure." What oils are you speaking of?

Well ........
Full Synthetics
RedLine / Royal Purple Racing 21 or 41 / Amsoil/ Cosworth http://www.focussport.com/liquidcosworth.htm
Synthetic Blends
Shaffers http://www.schaefferoil.com/ or Pennzoil Platinum
Dino
Castrol GTX or Havoline

Or Sarges High Performance Soup
6qts Castrol GTX
3oz AutoRX http://www.auto-rx.com/index.html
8ozs Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21

[Wulfe13]

I've always used Valvoline Full Synthetic.... it is Full synthetic, if it says full synthetic, right???

[Sarge]

Just in......from a "oil board" and the author is a known chemist guru.....

Okay boys and girls, take a seat cause you aren't going to like this.

The new M1 EP 5W-30 SM dated Oct 2006 just came out of the G.C. and it is MOSTLY mineral oil, presumably Group III. It also contains a good slug of AN and some PAO, but little or no ester. Will have more data tomorrow.


And Mobil has changed its spec sheets on the 5-30 EP....
"PAO + hydroprocessed."
BY the way GC is Gas Chromatograph....cuts through the shit machine

After all these years of Mobil1 crying about other "Synthetic Blend" brands selling as Full Synthetics.....they go and do this.....just goes to show you what money and greed will do.

[Sarge]

I've always used Valvoline Full Synthetic.... it is Full synthetic, if it says full synthetic, right???

No...less that 25% is PAO....rest is mineral basestock.....sorry...
Only true synthetics I know here in the states are RedLine/Amsoil/Royal Purple Racing Oils....oh yeah and Cosworth.....but don't get all caught up in "what is 100% synthetic"......blends and dino's are fine....it is all in the add packs....I'm pissed at Mobil1 cuz they are charging a shitload for a GroupIII product...and are a bunch of hypocrites to boot. $6.00 a quart for that shit? My ass!
Courts said a hydro cracked dino can be called 100% synthetic....that is how they get away with that. And FWIW I have 6 qts of Valvoline Synpower 10-30 sloshing around in my Dodge R/T right now....good oil....got it on sale for $2 bucks a quart

[Hi-Po]

Holy smokes. So much to learn. I have alot of reading to do. Oil is so damn hard to understand.... really.

[Sarge]

Not really HiPo....like I have said many times....it ain't about the basestock...it is the additives...friction modifiers/detergents/viscosity enhancers and such....look Mobil1 is a good $3.00 per quart oil.....but they are selling it for $6.00 per quart under the guise of a full synthetic and got caught....

[Sarge]

And Amsoil lil baby ass aint clean in all this either...I'm still pissed at them over their XL lines of oils....The XL line is Group III, and Amsoil calls it synthetic. Before that line came out Amsoil made a big deal about how Group III isn't really synthetic, blah blah blah. But when they introduce their own Group III oil, it's somehow now synthetic. Now Amsoil ATM is still 100% synthetic... https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx but the XL is Group III https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlt.aspx

[Hi-Po]

So, where are the true group IV? I pay somewhere around $3 for Quaker State full synthetic.... I didnt put much thought into it as this is just my DD. I did figure it was "ok" oil. What group oil is this? How can i find group #'s of oils?

[YoMommasTA]

Well ........
Full Synthetics
RedLine / Royal Purple Racing 21 or 41 / Amsoil/ Cosworth http://www.focussport.com/liquidcosworth.htm
Synthetic Blends
Shaffers http://www.schaefferoil.com/ or Pennzoil Platinum
Dino
Castrol GTX or Havoline

Or Sarges High Performance Soup
6qts Castrol GTX
3oz AutoRX http://www.auto-rx.com/index.html
8ozs Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21

thats why i have been using pennzoil plat.5 qts 18 bucks at walmart.

[YoMommasTA]

And Amsoil lil baby ass aint clean in all this either...I'm still pissed at them over their XL lines of oils....The XL line is Group III, and Amsoil calls it synthetic. Before that line came out Amsoil made a big deal about how Group III isn't really synthetic, blah blah blah. But when they introduce their own Group III oil, it's somehow now synthetic. Now Amsoil ATM is still 100% synthetic... https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx but the XL is Group III https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlt.aspx

i havnt trusted amsoil since buddy holly died!

[Sarge]

Why did the plane have Amsoil in it?
Amsoil is good oil.....but I hate the way it is marketed....the NAPA here in town sells Royal Purple/Amsoil/Schaffers for less than anywhere on the internet cuz he sells so much of it.....