Fast Vs. Reliable

[JoshieDoom]

As a kid I didnt really hang out much with the younger crowd. It was just my folks and their friends and mostly a bunch of car guys.

I know a lot of you throw tons of money at going faster and faster cheaply as possible but do you guys actually consider way down the road that might not be as reliable as something a wee bit less powerful?

Had this discussion with some older car guys and it seems some people like stock stuff because it is reliable... while im not a fan of stock stuff, because it is designed not for power and fuel economy, just emissions and insurance BS and easy manufacturing.

I plan on just building a car that will run 12s safely and last till crude is depleted!
Just a thought.

Opinions?

[Too Fast]

I'd say your almost there already, are you not? That is my goal also, run 12s on a hot day, I've done it 2x now. I know the MPH is there for it already (107-109.9), but I'm too scared to put slicks on.


I am sticking mostly to stock stuff, once I get an LS6 intake, then a tune, that should do it.

[JoshieDoom]

I'd say your almost there already, are you not? That is my goal also, run 12s on a hot day, I've done it 2x now. I know the MPH is there for it already (107-109.9), but I'm too scared to put slicks on.


I am sticking mostly to stock stuff, once I get an LS6 intake, then a tune, that should do it.

Yeah actually I probably am.

I dont feel safe with my stock 98 engine or stock 98 rear end.

Ive heard of some people making sure the 10 bolt is straight then welding up the axle tubes...

[Too Fast]

I've welded my axle tubes already, didn't think about checking for straightness tho! DOH! I also put a girdle on it. I have absolutely no noise from it, the car has almost 80k now. The only thing going against your is the high mileage, right?

[JoshieDoom]

I've welded my axle tubes already, didn't think about checking for straightness tho! DOH! I also put a girdle on it. I have absolutely no noise from it, the car has almost 80k now. The only thing going against your is the high mileage, right?

Slowly replacing everything that can or will break with normal use.

New converter is transmission are ready to go in.. i just have to find a good used ls1 block that can stand some machine work.

I know people arent for the GM hotcams because they are so many better options out there but its cheap and it gets the sounds I want so I think im going to try and find one..

I think some ARP rod bolts would be in order as well...

Right now I have so many projects going on its not even funny...

my dd 98 bird
my 91 bird.
co project 79 bird with dad
co project 45 jeep
co project 1951 ford tractor
my 88 m1009 cucv



I think on street tires an some 10 bolt loving it should be for long long periods of time .After buying tubular front suspension with qa1 rod ends I think im going to sell them because I have heard they were out really easily and arent good for street.

I told myself I wasnt going to sell them but some headers do sound nice now...

[blackSS01]

Very very easy to get into the 11's and be more reliable then Stock. Now cheaply........thats another question. Cheap and performance never ever go together

[JoshieDoom]

Very very easy to get into the 11's and be more reliable then Stock. Now cheaply........thats another question. Cheap and performance never ever go together

11s that usually means a larger cam swap and changing out springs often..

[blackSS01]

11s that usually means a larger cam swap and changing out springs often..

Not really. My car should have more then enough nuts to get into high 11's with a torquer v2 and supporting mods. With a A4 and stall, even easier.

[JoshieDoom]

Not really. My car should have more then enough nuts to get into high 11's with a torquer v2 and supporting mods. With a A4 and stall, even easier.

Really dont feel like changing out valve springs that often

[blackSS01]

Really dont feel like changing out valve springs that often

Its .598 max lift on a .625 spring (918's) Shouldn't have to change it out for quite a while would be my take. I don't plan on switching for years to come.

[JoshieDoom]

Its .598 max lift on a .625 spring (918's) Shouldn't have to change it out for quite a while would be my take. I don't plan on switching for years to come.

Im not comfortable doing something like myself

[blackSS01]

Maybe some others will chime in here soon. Especially since I haven't tested this H/C combo out yet

[rel3rd]

Very very easy to get into the 11's and be more reliable then Stock. Now cheaply........thats another question. Cheap and performance never ever go together

Having been there and done it, I'd have to disagree with both statements. Throwing more horsepower at something naturally puts more stress on everything. More load and stress = less reliable, no matter how perfect it runs. If it was "very very easy" then there'd be a whole lot more cars that could do it. There's tons of people who worry about how high it dyno's, but can't run a number anywhere near impressive at the track. LUCK has a good bit to do with it also IMHO. I've whooped up on cars with 100+ more dyno proven horsepower, and know at least one guy who ran quicker than me with less horsepower. (My 3755# SS made 344rwhp yet ran a best of 11.61@116).

As far as cheaply being out of the question...that's definitely a matter of opinion as to what exactly is expensive and what's cheap? With a house payment and 3 kids, I have to shop around for my mods, and it easily saves me a ton of cash.

I started with a bone stock 2000 SS that had 110,000 miles on it. ($8000)
Did all the common A4 street/strip mods...free ramair, lid ($100), used catback ($200), used ory w/used longtubes ($200 for both), drag radials ($320), and a used Vigilante 3600 stall ($450), and a basic tune for $400. The car went 12.66@107 in the heat and humidity of the Summer.
I bought a used cam ($200), new 918 springs, pushrods, and gaskets ($300 or so), and also bought my own used copy of HPTuners ($200). The car went 11.75@114 the first time back to the track and soon after some tweaking to the tune, went 11.60's@115 all day long, best of 11.61@116. It'd go 11.80's in the middle of the Summer. With heavy TT2's (instead of ProStars) at all 4 corners it ran 12.0's all day long. There was no high dollar suspension work, no fancy high dollar transmission or rear, and the car could be driven anywhere/anytime, by anybody, yet still yanked the front wheels at every launch. Gotta love that.

Even if everything was bought new, it still was a nice dollar to horsepower ratio IMO. Especially when you look around at all the higher budgeted 400+ horsepower cars that can't get out of the 12's.

11s that usually means a larger cam swap and changing out springs often..

Really dont feel like changing out valve springs that often

Not sure where you have gotten this info, but it just isn't true. If properly broken in, valvesprings are designed to last 100,000 miles +. Obviously, a higher lift cam is harder on them than a stock cam would be, but the reality of it is that you do not zing the engine to redline more than you just cruise around. Revving to 6500 every time you take off from a red light would surely wear out springs quicker than if you didn't, but even then it isn't as dramatic as you seem to think. FWIW, I beat the crap out of my car everytime I drove it (it was a toy). I made well over 150 passes on it over two Summers. And my old 918 springs still let the car rev easily to it's 6800 rpm redline anytime it wanted to.



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[JoshieDoom]

Having been there and done it, I'd have to disagree with both statements. Throwing more horsepower at something naturally puts more stress on everything. More load and stress = less reliable, no matter how perfect it runs. If it was "very very easy" then there'd be a whole lot more cars that could do it. There's tons of people who worry about how high it dyno's, but can't run a number anywhere near impressive at the track. LUCK has a good bit to do with it also IMHO. I've whooped up on cars with 100+ more dyno proven horsepower, and know at least one guy who ran quicker than me with less horsepower. (My 3755# SS made 344rwhp yet ran a best of 11.61@116).

As far as cheaply being out of the question...that's definitely a matter of opinion as to what exactly is expensive and what's cheap? With a house payment and 3 kids, I have to shop around for my mods, and it easily saves me a ton of cash.

I started with a bone stock 2000 SS that had 110,000 miles on it. ($8000)
Did all the common A4 street/strip mods...free ramair, lid ($100), used catback ($200), used ory w/used longtubes ($200 for both), drag radials ($320), and a used Vigilante 3600 stall ($450), and a basic tune for $400. The car went 12.66@107 in the heat and humidity of the Summer.
I bought a used cam ($200), new 918 springs, pushrods, and gaskets ($300 or so), and also bought my own used copy of HPTuners ($200). The car went 11.75@114 the first time back to the track and soon after some tweaking to the tune, went 11.60's@115 all day long, best of 11.61@116. It'd go 11.80's in the middle of the Summer. With heavy TT2's (instead of ProStars) at all 4 corners it ran 12.0's all day long. There was no high dollar suspension work, no fancy high dollar transmission or rear, and the car could be driven anywhere/anytime, by anybody.

Even if everything was bought new, it still was a nice dollar to horsepower ratio IMO. Especially when you look around at all the higher budgeted 400+ horsepower cars that can't get out of the 12's.




Not sure where you have gotten this info, but it just isn't true. If properly broken in, valvesprings are designed to last 100,000 miles +. Obviously, a higher lift cam is harder on them than a stock cam would be, but the reality of it is that you do not zing the engine to redline more than you just cruise around. Revving to 6500 every time you take off from a red light would surely wear out springs quicker than if you didn't, but even then it isn't as dramatic as you seem to think. FWIW, I beat the crap out of my car everytime I drove it (it was a toy). I made well over 150 passes on it over two Summers. And my old 918 springs still let the car rev easily to it's 6800 rpm redline anytime it wanted to.



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I have started many threads on valve spring life and my statements were backed up by the info I gained from those threads. Where is your info backing up broken in valvesprings lasting for over 100k?

[Hi-Po]

I dont see whats so hard about changing valve springs every 20,000 miles. You get that awesome tool from Crane(well they made it orginally) and its a fairly easy job. I dont see it as much of a sacrafice to have a cam that will make some power. But, when you get down deep into all this... Its all a matter of opinion. Thats it. Opinion.

[D!ck]

I'll Take Both! FTW

[ibanez7]

my camaro is a low 11 sec 1/4 mile car and has a 114,000 miles on it. The only things that ever crapped are:

-waterpump
-front calipers (master cylinder brakes) caused from braking hard at the track
-counter weights on stock ls6 clutch broke off.

My camaro has been involved in racing since its first mile on the odometer, it was a daily driver except the winters up till 3 years ago, now the car is lucky to see 8,000 miles a year.

Any car with high hp and fast ETs can be reliable, depends on the builder, quality of parts and owner maintence.

Budget build cars built by rednecks are the ones that break down at the track, or idiots that build high hp engines, but dont build up anything else to support the power.

rules when building reliable hp:
-build from the ground up, suspension/frame before hp
-build from the back forward, strong drive train before hp
-dont buy cheap parts., saving money on deals are good, but dont be cheap
-dont ever shortcut installation
-know the difference between driving hard and beating on a car.

[rel3rd]

I have started many threads on valve spring life and my statements were backed up by the info I gained from those threads. Where is your info backing up broken in valvesprings lasting for over 100k?

ummm, how about GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc...???
They ALL do it, even on performance engines. The LS powered cars, the Hemi cars, the factory supercharged Shelby GT500's...and many, many more.

A stock Z06 Vette with stock fairly high lift camshaft revs to what, 7000 rpm's?
Do they replace the valvesprings every year or every so many miles?


or maybe, MerCruiser, or any other boat engine builder...They are designed to run at WOT all day long, which is the absolute hardest you can be on a valvetrain...

The fact is, you can easily run a .600" lift or lower camshaft without worry or having to constantly change valvesprings like you have heard/read. That is backed up by the THOUSANDS who have done it in the past, and do it presently.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I do hate to see people make mistakes for no good reason. Just trying to help. I've been doing this stuff for a long time...

[ibanez7]

in regards to replacing valve springs and how often. It comes down to a few things

-how aggressive is the cam lobe. if it ramps fast or not
-what aftermarket springs did you buy
-how well do you maintain your car
-do you drive it hard or beat on it.

If the lobe on the cam has an aggressive ramp, and the rev limiter is set to 10,000 rpms yes frequent valvesprings changes should be performed as Protective maintenence, (if not changed atleast inspect the valvtrain annualy)

If the car is producing 400rwhp up to about 500rwhp (mild ramp cam), rev limiter is set at 7,200 and you bought good springs, then yeah the springs should last a long time, if the car is well maintained. However you should still inspect the springs annually.

OEM stock cars, making high HP suchs as the z06 or zr1 have springs, (valvetrain) and cams that compliment eachother. hence why you can make 500-600hp and still have a 100k warranty.

Our ls1 engines where not designed for 500-600hp. Since we have to accomplish that through aftermarket parts, its up to us to pick parts that compliment eachother in both performance and reliability. Plus if your build a fast car, you still need to inspect the aftermarket parts frequently. Most aftermarket parts go straight to market will little reliability testing, oem cars go through hell and back before release.

[shady milkman]

in regards to replacing valve springs and how often. It comes down to a few things

-how aggressive is the cam lobe. if it ramps fast or not
-what aftermarket springs did you buy
-how well do you maintain your car
-do you drive it hard or beat on it.

If the lobe on the cam has an aggressive ramp, and the rev limiter is set to 10,000 rpms yes frequent valvesprings changes should be performed as Protective maintenence, (if not changed atleast inspect the valvtrain annualy)

If the car is producing 400rwhp up to about 500rwhp (mild ramp cam), rev limiter is set at 7,200 and you bought good springs, then yeah the springs should last a long time, if the car is well maintained. However you should still inspect the springs annually.

OEM stock cars, making high HP suchs as the z06 or zr1 have springs, (valvetrain) and cams that compliment eachother. hence why you can make 500-600hp and still have a 100k warranty.

Our ls1 engines where not designed for 500-600hp. Since we have to accomplish that through aftermarket parts, its up to us to pick parts that compliment eachother in both performance and reliability. Plus if your build a fast car, you still need to inspect the aftermarket parts frequently. Most aftermarket parts go straight to market will little reliability testing, oem cars go through hell and back before release.

you hit the nail on the head ..and going off what you said..josh..if you pair up the right cam, with the right valvetrain then there is very little to worry about ..if you just throw in some high lift capable springs and call it good..then you will wear out fast