looking to do a TT set up on a LS1... max power on bottom end?

**Freebs** · 10-02-2007, 05:33 PM

Well like the title says im looking to do a APS turbo set up on a LS1 Trans am.. what i am wondering is what kinda power/boost can the stock bottom end take... as well as things like the diff/trany..

I do plan on going with a Lingenfelter 403 LS2 down the road but for now its going to be just the stock bottom end LS1 with the APS system on it..

**zero_proto** · 10-02-2007, 07:11 PM

well you can but about 8 pounds from what i've seen stock on an aps kit, just upgrade your injectors and you should be good for a little over 500 to the wheels

**Freebs** · 10-02-2007, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by zero_proto

well you can but about 8 pounds from what i've seen stock on an aps kit, just upgrade your injectors and you should be good for a little over 500 to the wheels

yea i will be doing the turbo kit as well as the fuel mods... so you say about 8psi i should be safe on the ls1?

**Danger731** · 10-03-2007, 04:09 AM

All that money just to get restricted at 500 hp ?, just get a nitrous kit.

**enginjoe** · 10-03-2007, 08:07 AM

500rwhp is safe, but I've seen over 600 last for awhile. Tuning is the key. Of course your whole drive train is on borrowed time. Also, If you are over 500, use good gas (100+ oct) always.

**zero_proto** · 10-03-2007, 09:32 AM

8 pounds and you should be good. But just like danger said, just through some nitrous on it.

**Freebs** · 10-03-2007, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Danger731

All that money just to get restricted at 500 hp ?, just get a nitrous kit.

it wont be restricted to that for long.... this kit will only be on the stock ls1 for maybe a year... plan is to throw the kit on the stock engine right away and then drive it for about a year and then throw it on a built up 403 LS2 from Lingenfelter and put it all back in the T/A.. and then maybe shoot for 650-700whp... just i want to space out the big puchases a bit... easier on the bank account.. and if it blows the engine well then so be it, but i figured i would find out first what they have been knowen to hold so can kind of keep it with in thoughs limits...

**Blitzed** · 10-03-2007, 01:54 PM

Details on This "2002 Twin Charged Sunfire
Silver"? And pics blah blah, you know the routine I'm sure

**cailey37** · 10-03-2007, 05:36 PM

Any time you starting adding power adders to the equation you can't expect the motor to last 200K miles........it's just the trade off you have to accept. Now, as far as how much can the stock bottom end take.....well....some claim over 500hp, some even say they push it to 1000hp......but I think the general concensus is that 500hp is safe.....and as far as gas goes......not sure how Canada has their octane ratings but the highest we can get at the pump here is 93 octane.......that will be fine for 500hp......it comes down to your tune......keeping the motor from knocking......a good methanol injection kit will do the trick........I made over 700rwhp on pump gas and methanol......if you're planning on building a different motor down the road anyways I'd just slap some nitrous on the thing now and get yourself a LSX block and start building a motor for a blown application. They are rated at 2500 hp and cost $1900. Can't beat that!!!!! Then you can match up the turbo to your motor and do everything at once.....trust me....you'll save a ton of money in the long run!!!! Also, why are you going twin turbo? Get yourself a 88mm turbo and you're in the 1100rwhp range if you build the motor right....just some food for thought.......

**Freebs** · 10-04-2007, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by cailey37

Any time you starting adding power adders to the equation you can't expect the motor to last 200K miles........it's just the trade off you have to accept. Now, as far as how much can the stock bottom end take.....well....some claim over 500hp, some even say they push it to 1000hp......but I think the general concensus is that 500hp is safe.....and as far as gas goes......not sure how Canada has their octane ratings but the highest we can get at the pump here is 93 octane.......that will be fine for 500hp......it comes down to your tune......keeping the motor from knocking......a good methanol injection kit will do the trick........I made over 700rwhp on pump gas and methanol......if you're planning on building a different motor down the road anyways I'd just slap some nitrous on the thing now and get yourself a LSX block and start building a motor for a blown application. They are rated at 2500 hp and cost $1900. Can't beat that!!!!! Then you can match up the turbo to your motor and do everything at once.....trust me....you'll save a ton of money in the long run!!!! Also, why are you going twin turbo? Get yourself a 88mm turbo and you're in the 1100rwhp range if you build the motor right....just some food for thought.......

Oh yea I fully understand the part about if you add boost or this much extra power to a stock engine your not going to last as long as running it the way it was meant from the factory (been down that road before)

I can get 94 octane from the pumps but normally with my boosted cars I get them tuned with 91 octane (since it is every where and 94 is at limited pumps) and I normally run the alky set up with that... and just use the 94 when I can, so that way I never have to worry if 91 is the only thing I can get at the time. (Ex. on road trips when you need gas and 94 is no where to be found)

I don’t want to go the nitrous way, never have really been a fan of it. I know sure it works, and some friends use it, but I am personally not a fan and with the APS set up, I think that would be able to take care of more then I plan on running even with the built motor.

As for the LSx engine, ill have to look more into that... I was planning on going to a 403 LS2 engine from Lingenfelter, as I trust their work since my dad has a 2007 Z06 corvette with their 800hp Twin Turbo kit on it and it was very well done...

And reason for twin turbo vs. single... nothing really... I like the idea of twin turbo, and this wont be an all out racer, I do like to take my cars on cruses and drive them as much as I can (it wont be a daily driver) but I still like to drive it as much as I can and I just like the idea of a twin turbo set up. And like I said above, my old man has the twin turbo LS7 and I think it’s a sweet set up.

Originally Posted by Blitzed

Details on This "2002 Twin Charged Sunfire
Silver"? And pics blah blah, you know the routine I'm sure

ahah yep I know the routine... either from people who done believe I have this set up or just people who are curious.
It’s a bone stock (internally) LD9 2.4L engine. I originally installed the GM 2.4L supercharger kit for this car on it, and found that it could make about 8psi constantly (not counting boost spikes top end) and even at that heat soak was a HUGE! Problem even with injecting alcohol...and so I thought about doing a twin charge set up, so I built my own custom turbo set up using a Garrett T3/T4E 60 trim with a stage 3 wheel and a .63 A/R which is a big turbo for this engine being stock. But because of the supercharger I spool to 10psi (into the engine) at about 1800rpm using a supercharger pulley 2 sizes up from what came stock on it, and it hold this boost smoothly right to 7000rpm. Using the stock size put me at about 1300rpm fully spooled and it was just way too much for the tires to hold to the ground.

And way onto the pictures I guess

this one kinda shows it best ahaha

this one is with it in the engine bay, charge pipes are just ruffed in here, i now have all polished stainless steel and they fit more square and have my HKS SSQ BOV right before the s/c'er, just havent taken any new pictures

i hope the pictures actually work... for some reason on this site my pictures never work

**Hamrhead** · 10-13-2007, 09:57 PM

For 650 to 700 just use an iron block. The stock crank will handle that power as well. Just upgrade your rods and pistons, bearings. The stock bottom will be good for 500 but not the tranny or rearend. Yes there are some out there that do but not for long. Some rears have busted with the stock hp and some last into the 10's. It is a crap shoot. The stock A4 are rated to 450ftlbs of torque I believe and the M6 should handle the same I believe but not positive. It isn't terribly hard to make that kind of power or build your car to hanle it so don't get carried away with a lot of stuff to withstand obscene power unless you plan on needing it. That can get really expensive.

**Freebs** · 10-14-2007, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hamrhead

For 650 to 700 just use an iron block. The stock crank will handle that power as well. Just upgrade your rods and pistons, bearings. The stock bottom will be good for 500 but not the tranny or rearend. Yes there are some out there that do but not for long. Some rears have busted with the stock hp and some last into the 10's. It is a crap shoot. The stock A4 are rated to 450ftlbs of torque I believe and the M6 should handle the same I believe but not positive. It isn't terribly hard to make that kind of power or build your car to hanle it so don't get carried away with a lot of stuff to withstand obscene power unless you plan on needing it. That can get really expensive.

Well my plan is to run a APS twin turbo system to bout 480-500whp for a year or so as im getting the rest of the stuff togeather and then do the following

- put in a 383 LS1 or a 403 LS2 from lingenfelter just with forged rods/pistons (about 9:1) which is what i think they went with on my dads C6 z06 with their 800hp kit so i dont see a need for 8.5:1

- ported heads

- bigger fuel injectors obviously

- Rocklands 6spd Tranzilla trany with one of their differentials

- APS twin turbo kit

So im not going to wild with the engine build up but im sure it would be able to handle the 700rwhp

**Hamrhead** · 10-14-2007, 08:10 PM

There are cheaper options than the blocks you picked but those will work as well. You might want to think about 370ci as well. It works well with twins. Don't forget your fuel pump and rails. What intake are you gonna use? Tuning? What about applying the power to the ground, suspension? Just curious about your project. The level of power you want should definitely be achieved.

**Freebs** · 10-14-2007, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Hamrhead

There are cheaper options than the blocks you picked but those will work as well. You might want to think about 370ci as well. It works well with twins. Don't forget your fuel pump and rails. What intake are you gonna use? Tuning? What about applying the power to the ground, suspension? Just curious about your project. The level of power you want should definitely be achieved.

yea i have thought about all that too.. i just put the main things down... I have a list for things to suport the mods like suspension/bracing from my dad as he was going to do the same thing to his 2002 WS6 but ended up only going mild on his build and went to 400whp as its his winter car but i still have that list...

why do you suggest a 370 over a 383 or 403?
and yea i understand about the cheeper blocks/ways of doing it but i have done a few tuners cars already and been involved with a few of my dads projects and i found going with the cheaper way pretty well always turns out bad..

intake im looking at the Fast intake matched with a 90mm throttle body

why do you say fuel rail? i know fuel pump but the fuel rail on them stock are a fair size ... and the injectors will only flow so much...

and for applying it to the ground with the rubber... my old man has a set of SIMMONS wheels on the gnx which i like and with simmon you can have any offset you choose so i was thinking of getting a set of thoughs made up and putting some 315's drag radials on them... thought about doing a mini tub... but i dont know

**Hamrhead** · 10-14-2007, 10:13 PM

Stay away from the Fast for FI systems. They have blown apart under boost. Go with an LS6 or LS2.

**Freebs** · 10-15-2007, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Hamrhead

Stay away from the Fast for FI systems. They have blown apart under boost. Go with an LS6 or LS2.

humm did not know that... thank you... The LS6/LS2 manifold are the one peice cast arent they? where as the fast are the 2 peice?.. either way thank you :P saves me from finding out the hard way

Also the suspension set up i was thinking of going with for this was BMR.... now i know there are other companies out there but whats your take with BMR?
I was going to go with this
- BMR control arms
- BMR panhard bar
- BMR lowering springs (was thinking Eibachs though too)
- BMR Torque arm
- BMR subframe conectors

and i cant find the other one but whats that one i see people using up front, and i believe APS says you need it for their turbo kits...looks almost like it conects the control arms up or something?

**Hamrhead** · 10-15-2007, 09:01 AM

No problem. I almost made the same mistake but was warned by Tom at Speed before they did my build. Actually went with a LS2 which is a lot cheaper and allowed a 90mm tb which I already had from my previous setup. The LS2 sucks in N/A applications but works great in FI set ups.

As far as fuel rails go they will make life easier as you will be using different fuel lines with a new setup and they aren't terribly expensive. Well worth it. Not sure what the stock rails flow as I ditched mine early on.

**Freebs** · 10-15-2007, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hamrhead

No problem. I almost made the same mistake but was warned by Tom at Speed before they did my build. Actually went with a LS2 which is a lot cheaper and allowed a 90mm tb which I already had from my previous setup. The LS2 sucks in N/A applications but works great in FI set ups.

As far as fuel rails go they will make life easier as you will be using different fuel lines with a new setup and they aren't terribly expensive. Well worth it. Not sure what the stock rails flow as I ditched mine early on.

ill have to look into that then... What turbo set up are you running?

**Hamrhead** · 10-15-2007, 09:11 AM

twin 67's with a 408

**Freebs** · 10-15-2007, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hamrhead

twin 67's with a 408

i take it you did your set up custom? no kit?.. i have thought about doing that... but i dont know if i want to make another custom turbo kit... i liked with i put on a supercharger kit on my car and it was just all there... no hunting for parts here and there...

do you have any pictures of your set up? or videos? you can send them to nin9_teen@hotmail.com if you want... wouldnt mind seeing your set up