$11K to spend......

**pinky93** · 03-15-2008, 06:09 AM

OK, I have $11K burning a hole in my pocket. I have the 2000 TA that is bone stock, right down to the air filter with about 65,000 miles on it. It is in excellent health, good performance, uses no oil, been on Mobil 1 it's whole life. And.....she is in desparate need of a clutch. ( I have already decided on the Textralia!)

I was originally going to ProCharge the IROC, however that plan went south when we found the TA. So, the D1SC has been sold, now the IROC is gone too.....all to fund the new sickness.

So.... I have been reading the boards, here, there and everywhere. As I said, I was originally in the ProCharger camp, but am being swayed by the lure of the turbocharger kits, specifically the APS twin turbo kit. I am trying to list the Pro's and Con's of each and have been reading all the posts. At first, I think the ProCharger would be cheaper (somewhat), but then there is headers to consider, so that may offset it. The APS kit would require a BMR k-member, so that would put me ahead on the front end weight already.

Right now, my plans are to do the clutch and whatever forced induction kit I decide on, then beef up the car around it. I know the rearend will not live long, but it will just have to do for a while.... I will certainly not try to hook up at all. I would also plan on subframe connectors and torque arm, but again, this will have to come later. I already have some BMR boxed lower control arms, so that is good.

Also, because of the previous ProCharger course, I already have the AutoMeter Boost, Fuel Pressure and wide band O2 electric gauges. These were a major investment all by themselves!!

So, I would appreciate anyone's comments or shared experiences. I just want to make the smart choice and maintain some level of driveability. This will mainly be a street car, but will definitely see alot of track time. All conveniences will be maintained, especially the air conditioner here in Florida!! It will also be important for this car to be able to make some highway runs and reliable commuting if necessary. (Right now, I average maybe 1,000 miles a year.)

I have been talking with Mike over at Norris Motorsports about the APS kit and I have dealt with Bob up at EPP on the previous ProCharger. Both of these guys are top notch, I am just having trouble making up my mind.....

I look forward to hearing from you guys, your experience will be appreciated.

Rick

**qwkgto** · 03-16-2008, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by pinky93

OK, I have $11K burning a hole in my pocket. I have the 2000 TA that is bone stock, right down to the air filter with about 65,000 miles on it. It is in excellent health, good performance, uses no oil, been on Mobil 1 it's whole life. And.....she is in desparate need of a clutch. ( I have already decided on the Textralia!)

I was originally going to ProCharge the IROC, however that plan went south when we found the TA. So, the D1SC has been sold, now the IROC is gone too.....all to fund the new sickness.

So.... I have been reading the boards, here, there and everywhere. As I said, I was originally in the ProCharger camp, but am being swayed by the lure of the turbocharger kits, specifically the APS twin turbo kit. I am trying to list the Pro's and Con's of each and have been reading all the posts. At first, I think the ProCharger would be cheaper (somewhat), but then there is headers to consider, so that may offset it. The APS kit would require a BMR k-member, so that would put me ahead on the front end weight already.

Right now, my plans are to do the clutch and whatever forced induction kit I decide on, then beef up the car around it. I know the rearend will not live long, but it will just have to do for a while.... I will certainly not try to hook up at all. I would also plan on subframe connectors and torque arm, but again, this will have to come later. I already have some BMR boxed lower control arms, so that is good.

Also, because of the previous ProCharger course, I already have the AutoMeter Boost, Fuel Pressure and wide band O2 electric gauges. These were a major investment all by themselves!!

So, I would appreciate anyone's comments or shared experiences. I just want to make the smart choice and maintain some level of driveability. This will mainly be a street car, but will definitely see alot of track time. All conveniences will be maintained, especially the air conditioner here in Florida!! It will also be important for this car to be able to make some highway runs and reliable commuting if necessary. (Right now, I average maybe 1,000 miles a year.)

I have been talking with Mike over at Norris Motorsports about the APS kit and I have dealt with Bob up at EPP on the previous ProCharger. Both of these guys are top notch, I am just having trouble making up my mind.....

I look forward to hearing from you guys, your experience will be appreciated.

Rick

turbo it<i build a kit for the gtos, car went 10.9 at 129 last year on stock motor,the kit i sell is a rear mount,work on any thing,just would need to change the location of some of the exhaust.

**cailey37** · 03-16-2008, 06:23 PM

My suggestion is to have someone build you a setup. Sure you can order the APS kit but you could get someone to build it for a lot less. Then you could use that money to beef up your drive train, fuel pump, injectors, and tires.....lots and lots of tires....kidding

I would stear clear of a rear mount turbo. Especially STS! Too many problems with oil return. Put it up front where it belongs and be done with it. Now, are you going to make this a daily driver, weekend warrior, or a little of both? That will also determine your build. That and how much HP you want. You could easily get over 500rwhp with a 60mm turbo....76mm turbo gets you up over 1000hp but then you'd better work on your internals........

**Rickys S/C Z28** · 03-16-2008, 07:41 PM

trust me bro the FIRST thing you should do is build a short block

**pinky93** · 03-17-2008, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Rickys S/C Z28

trust me bro the FIRST thing you should do is build a short block

I know you are right.... but who ever listens??

HAHA...you will be hearing me whine about those holes in my pistons before long!!

**Chad Nielson** · 03-17-2008, 04:49 PM

So cailey37 what problems does the STS kit have?? We have guys all over the world with our kits and they haven't had problems!! If you want to make pure power go with the STS, it has the most horsepower per boost ratio then anyone out there. Also if you are going to run higher than 7psi i would consider changing the springs. We have found that the valves tend to float around there. Regardless of turbo or S/C. Any questions let me know.

**blkSS98** · 03-17-2008, 06:07 PM

Get SFC's FIRST! The car has plenty of power to twist the car like a pretzel right now.

**cailey37** · 03-17-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Chad Nielson

So cailey37 what problems does the STS kit have?? We have guys all over the world with our kits and they haven't had problems!! If you want to make pure power go with the STS, it has the most horsepower per boost ratio then anyone out there. Also if you are going to run higher than 7psi i would consider changing the springs. We have found that the valves tend to float around there. Regardless of turbo or S/C. Any questions let me know.

Ok, let me start with one, the oil return line is inadequate. You end up pushing oil into the exaust and intake track. They rely on a pump to push the oil from the back up the fire wall and then drop it on your valve cover. May be fine for a dyno run but when you start driving it on the street that's where it gets the issues. You're fighting the force of the car and meanwhile the oil is trying to push against the car. Believe me, do a search and see what others are saying. I wont install another one!

Second, the intake piping over the drive axle comes down and once you have it all installed it drags. You end up having to modify it to get clearance.

You'll end up spending more money than you need to to fix what is wrong with the kit. When you should of just took your money, had someone fab it up front and be done with it.

Like I said, do a google search and see for yourself.

Now, unless you're Rick Squire, the owner of STS, who I've talked to about this then I'm not sure what to say. They are supposidly working on a new kit for the F-body cars but I'm stearing from it. Great idea but needs some work. Like I said, take your money and fab one up and come out ahead in the long run.

But hey, to each their own. I'm just going to tell what I've seen with the kits.....

**Frost** · 03-17-2008, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chad Nielson

So cailey37 what problems does the STS kit have?? We have guys all over the world with our kits and they haven't had problems!! If you want to make pure power go with the STS, it has the most horsepower per boost ratio then anyone out there. Also if you are going to run higher than 7psi i would consider changing the springs. We have found that the valves tend to float around there. Regardless of turbo or S/C. Any questions let me know.

I knew it, I said in another thread that you must work for them! After now working with about 10 of your kits, and all of them having the same problems, I find it hard to swallow that these were just isolated and everything is fine with every other one of your customers. Each of the issues I linked in the other thread (http://www.ls1.com/forums/showpost.p...2&postcount=11) on top of what is mentioned by those here, either I or my customers \have asked your people about over the phone. Each time it's disbelief and saying that they have never heard of any problems with this before. It's funny that all of this reads the same over on the "other" LS1 board as well. It's funny that you tell people they don't need an intercooler at 5psi because of your pipe's cooling... I went to the trouble of using and logging an IAT sensor in the back on the first non IC'd kit I tuned because the customer was doggedly determined that you guys told him it had been tested. It took about 5 logs showing him the same thing measured at the back as in the front. It was actually a couple degrees WARMER up front but I give you the benefit of the doubt and call it heatsoak.

You could make a better product, just listen to your customers. I hear the truck kits have beveled pressurized piping as well as the vette kits, which seem to be very nice indeed.

**cailey37** · 03-17-2008, 07:06 PM

I wonder what caused their motor to blow?

Notice the oil.......

**cailey37** · 03-17-2008, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Frost

I knew it, I said in another thread that you must work for them! After now working with baout 10 of your kits, and all of them having the same problems, I find it hard to swallow that these were just isolated and everything is fine with every other one of your customers. Each of the issues I linked in the other thread (http://www.ls1.com/forums/showpost.p...2&postcount=11) on top of what is mentioned by those here, either I or my customers \have asked your people about over the phone. Each time it's disbelief and saying that they have never heard of any problems with this before. It's funny that all of this reads the same over on the "other" LS1 board as well. It's funny that you tell people they don't need an intercooler at 5psi because of your pipe's cooling... I went to the trouble of using and logging an IAT sensor in the back on the first non IC'd kit I tuned because the customer was doggedly determined that you guys told him it had been tested. It took about 5 logs showing him the same thing measured at the back as in the front. It was actually a couple degrees WARMER up front but I give you the benefit of the doubt and call it heatsoak.

You could make a better product, just listen to your customers. I hear the truck kits have beveled pressurized piping as well as the vette kits, which seem to be very nice indeed.

Holly hell.....the end of the world is near....something me and Frost agree on.....kidding....lol

I dont want to bash the kit but it has problems....and to say it doesn't....well.....like I said....great idea but needs some work...

**Frost** · 03-17-2008, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by cailey37

Holly hell.....the end of the world is near....something me and Frost agree on.....kidding....lol

haha

**pinky93** · 03-17-2008, 07:50 PM

Well, I think I will steer clear of the STS kit..........
Does anyone have any experience with the APS kit?

**Chad Nielson** · 03-17-2008, 08:27 PM

You guys are very funny i especially like the video link. The best part about that is the oil pump to the motor wasn't running. The real kicker is the fact that they said the SEAL IN THE TURBO IS BAD!!. When we should all know that there is not any seals in the turbo. If they did not know that then i dont think they know what they are doing!! The way the oil returns to the motor is very specific, the install has to be done correctly. I am not rick squires, i just work there. The only reason i am on this forum is because i bought a 02 SS. This forum is a great learning tool.

**cailey37** · 03-18-2008, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Chad Nielson

You guys are very funny i especially like the video link. The best part about that is the oil pump to the motor wasn't running. The real kicker is the fact that they said the SEAL IN THE TURBO IS BAD!!. When we should all know that there is not any seals in the turbo. If they did not know that then i dont think they know what they are doing!! The way the oil returns to the motor is very specific, the install has to be done correctly. I am not rick squires, i just work there. The only reason i am on this forum is because i bought a 02 SS. This forum is a great learning tool.

Unless I missed something I didn't hear them say the pump was working or not. They may very well not know what they are doing but they had the same issue many had with the STS kit, which is what I had, and I know what I'm doing.

I understand you work there and are just pushing your product and that's great but until I see them running at the track and people stop complaining about them on forums for the same thing......well, it's kinda hard for me anyways to say they are great. Like I said, novel idea but it needs some work and if I buy something I dont want to spend time R/D'ing something to try and make it work.

**TNTramair** · 03-18-2008, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by pinky93

Well, I think I will steer clear of the STS kit..........
Does anyone have any experience with the APS kit?

the kit is very well made....quality and finish is incredible for a production kit. everything fits very well with minimal cutting. its as a complete kit as your gonna find. Some claim the Turbo's are too small for big cubes but i have yet to see any true evidence of this and i will soon find out myself.
only knock on this kit that i would say is you have to run a BMR K-member...small price to pay IMO which 90% of F-body owners that drag their cars will end up purchasing anyways for the weight savings.
the kit will not break any HP records but itll make more than enough power you'll need for the street.
look for a thread of my start up and dyno etc coming in the near future.

**GottaHaveLS1** · 03-18-2008, 09:22 AM

If I were you I wouldn't go forced induction right off the bat because stock ls1's are not designed for it and I'm not sure if $11k is enough for a rebuilt motor and a turbo or supercharger kit.
I'm no expert, but I think you should get a stroker, maybe an iron block. Whether you get a new motor or not, I would get a nasty head and cam set up and obviously full boltons. With that cash you could afford some stainless headers and true duals over the axles. Full suspension would definitely be important as well. Once you get everything built up, then u should think about FI. With the amount of power these cars can get with FI, I beleive it's necessary to build up everything else first so you can get a shitload of power and not have to worry about things breaking.

**Chad Nielson** · 03-19-2008, 06:06 AM

Does anyone know how much the APS kit is?

**Midnight02** · 03-19-2008, 06:43 AM

Interesting thread so far.....I'm interested in hearing more.

I'm still learning more and more about the FI setups for the LSx motors, however I can say with certainty that you really need to go ahead and install sub-frame connectors. There is so much flex in the chassis of these cars and SFCs are going to be a MUST if you want to save your rear quarter panels. Back when I only had a few basic mods (roughly 350 rwhp) I was already starting to get dimples in the rear panels. Once I learned of this, I immediately picked up SFCs and had them installed. They do a great job of firming the car up (thus eliminating many of the interior rattles as well as putting an end to the dimpling in the rear).

**TNTramair** · 03-19-2008, 07:58 AM

original batch of kits went out for $5495 shipped to our doors and they delivered a week head of schedule. now the kits go for $5995.00 plus shipping.