Why does the DHS need 450 Million hollow points?

**Spikito** · 05-22-2012, 06:32 AM

So the dept of homeland security recently signed a contract, allotting them up to 450 Million hollow points over the next 5 years.

What the hell?

Homeland security, they don't fight wars, and hollow points aren't allowed under the Geneva convention anyway. They shoot Domestic terrorists, and threatening citizens.

Now I know that they wont be receiving 450M in a bulk shipment, but what is foreseen in the next 5 years that could warrant such quantities?

This order is also for other smaller agencies, like border patrol, but still, its covering 135,000 armed agents, thats 3300+ rounds PER agent. and enough to kill every American, and half of us twice.

They can't be for training, because FMJs are way cheaper, and just as effective at punching holes in paper. Hollow points are for shooting people.....

I get the feeling this is an effort to cause mass shortage and skyrocketed prices. not only by the govt hoarding them, but also the panic that will ensue, causing others to mass hoard, leaving many gun owners empty handed.

Not to mention an order of that size would cost atleast $100 million

**jiveass** · 05-22-2012, 06:44 AM

maybe they are getting ready to attack the cartel's in mexico....

**az gt eater** · 05-22-2012, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by jiveass

maybe they are getting ready to attack the cartel's in mexico....

Beat me to it...

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-22-2012, 04:27 PM

Zombie Apocalypse??

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-22-2012, 04:28 PM

Btw, what calibur are they stock piling?

**Schmalgar** · 05-22-2012, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by jiveass

maybe they are getting ready to attack the cartel's in mexico....

Or accidentally allow the ammo to fall into the cartels' hands...

**tremiles** · 05-22-2012, 06:14 PM

DHS encompasses the Coast Guard, Customs and Border Protection, ICE, Secret Service, FEMA, Citizenship and Immigration Services, and TSA. That's alot of agents. Do you have a link to an article about the contract? Typically ammunition contracts are for a maximum potential number of rounds and overruns are sold off by dealers. That is typically how LE marked boxes of ammunition like Win Ranger T & B, Federal HST, Speer LE Gold Dots become available to the public because manufacturers typically won't sell that ammo direct to civvies (which sucks). I believe most of those agencies issue 40S&W so there may be a whole lot of really good 40S&W ammo on the market for us over the next couple of years. Additionally, orders that big are negotiated at huge discounts over what you and I would pay. I'd be surprised if the per round price is even $0.10/round.

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**Spikito** · 05-22-2012, 07:29 PM

its .40 S&W, and i know it covers a lot of agencies, but all together they encompass 135,000 armed officers, hence the 3300+ rounds per officer.

and theres a bunch of articles, just google dhs 450 and youll get hundreds.

**tremiles** · 05-22-2012, 08:03 PM

As an civilian enthusiast, and I know that many LE aren't, that doesn't seem like alot to me. Between dryfire exercises, range trips, and function testing, I probably go through 50 SD/duty HP's a month, because I don't rechamber rounds more than 2x to prevent bullet setback. After 2 chamberings, they go in the range box. X60 months that's 3000 rounds. But again, I'm a range rat.

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***SMWS6TA*** · 05-22-2012, 08:36 PM

I don't use regular HP 40 cal ammo, mine requires FMJ all the time (GLOCK) so I use target ammo for the range and Hydroshock rounds for PP.

I need to start getting more mags. It's starting to suck reloading all the time after me and my son shoot a set of targets.

**Zinergy** · 05-23-2012, 06:06 AM

They are getting ready for the riots when Obama announces there will not be a presidential election this year. He has put a hold on it for 10 or so years.

**Spikito** · 05-23-2012, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by tremiles

As an civilian enthusiast, and I know that many LE aren't, that doesn't seem like alot to me. Between dryfire exercises, range trips, and function testing, I probably go through 50 SD/duty HP's a month, because I don't rechamber rounds more than 2x to prevent bullet setback. After 2 chamberings, they go in the range box. X60 months that's 3000 rounds. But again, I'm a range rat.

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you practice at the range with hollow points? seems a bit pricey.

I reload as well, and i also only do it twice, but on my rifle rounds its more due to the thinning of the case walls.

my point is, in general, hollow points are intended to inflict damage, not for practice...if these were FMJs i wouldn't blink an eye at the quantity, nor question their purpose

**Zinergy** · 05-23-2012, 09:39 AM

I have practiced with HPs just because that is what I will shoot if I ever need to use my firearm on an intruder.

I also reload and use my shells many more times than 2. Some I am sure have been rloaded 7 or 8 times by now.

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-23-2012, 09:47 AM

I use the 185 grain target rounds instead of 165 grain because that is the same amount of gunpowder in the Hydroschock rounds. Ever once in a while I'll shoot a box of hydroshocks in a log or stump on a friends property for the same reason Zinergy said.

**Spikito** · 05-23-2012, 09:51 AM

oh...I just buy a quality enough firearm that it will shoot whatever round i put in it...

kidding guys....kidding...

**Zinergy** · 05-23-2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

I use the 185 grain target rounds instead of 165 grain because that is the same amount of gunpowder in the Hydroschock rounds. Ever once in a while I'll shoot a box of hydroshocks in a log or stump on a friends property for the same reason Zinergy said.

You also have to know what kind of powder is in there. Some powders burn faster than others, which is why when reloading the maximum load for X powder is 5.1grains and the maximum load for Y powder is 8.6grains. The size of the slug also determines how much powder to use. The longer the slug the less space there will be between the slug and the powder and therefore the the more pressure will be built up and in a quicker time. This pressure also increases when the powder being used burns very fast.

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-23-2012, 10:19 AM

I don't use reloads yet. I haven't branched off into learning how to do it. I'm interested but most of my hobby money is going towards the T/A.

**tremiles** · 05-23-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Spikito

you practice at the range with hollow points? seems a bit pricey.

I reload as well, and i also only do it twice, but on my rifle rounds its more due to the thinning of the case walls.

my point is, in general, hollow points are intended to inflict damage, not for practice...if these were FMJs i wouldn't blink an eye at the quantity, nor question their purpose

That's not my regular range ammo, no. But I dryfire several days a week which requires me to de-chamber a sd/duty round to load snap caps. Bullet setback from multiple re-chamberings can cause pressure spikes which I try to avoid. Ammo is still cheaper than a blown up gun + surgery. In addition, I function test rounds from different lot#'s to verify reliable feeding/extraction. I don't assume that all factory SD/Duty HP ammo will work in my carry gun. I'm happy to say that thus far nearly all the Fed. HST, Ranger T&B have, but I have had a very few rounds that I could not attribute to pistol or user error.

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**Redrokit8** · 05-23-2012, 10:32 AM

All I know is approx 45 years ago you couldn't give me and my platoon members ENOUGH ammunition. Gentlemen, when your life is at stake and those around you as well, you will rapid fire continuously until either you run out of ammo, your weapon gives up or you have killed anything and everything that was previously alive. Many a fire fight in heavy jungle camouflage has turned the landscape into barren land void of any vegetation. I think the old adage "you had to be there to understand" is appropriate. I know the amount of ammo seems unbelievable, but if needed it would go down faster than a truck stop whore.

**Zinergy** · 05-23-2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Redrokit8

All I know is approx 45 years ago you couldn't give me and my platoon members ENOUGH ammunition. Gentlemen, when your life is at stake and those around you as well, you will rapid fire continuously until either you run out of ammo, your weapon gives up or you have killed anything and everything that was previously alive. Many a fire fight in heavy jungle camouflage has turned the landscape into barren land void of any vegetation. I think the old adage "you had to be there to understand" is appropriate. I know the amount of ammo seems unbelievable, but if needed it would go down faster than a truck stop whore.

Yes but this isn't miltary. I think the OPs point was that this massive amount of ammo is going to agencies that operate here in the states and do not often see firefights. Unlike military or even special units of police.