old muscle wanted to play

**apache** · 10-08-2006, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

ok were any one of those mass produced at the 4th gen levels? i'm not talking about rare ass optioned cars.

Was the OP's car mass produced with nitrous? I don't think it was even a fair race.

**Street Lethal** · 10-09-2006, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by jAgZ28

302's were not that fast mid 14s from what i've seen i cant really speak for the sd 455...

The race inspired 302's that were offered by the factory were much faster than fourteen's. Horsepower was severely under-rated due to insurance purposes, but it is well known that they were putting out well over four hundered ponies. Mind you, the 302's camshafts were designed to make tremendous power under the curve, as well as peak (in excess of 7000-RPM), and believe me, they ran faster than what was purposely quoted by the magazines...

As for the Pontiac 455, the Super Duty engine catapulted the second generation Trans Am to a thirteen second pass, with severely limited traction. It too was seriously under-rated when it came to horsepower claims, but the real torque figures it produced proved, at least to those who know how to calculate horsepower, that it made much more to what was being claimed...

Originally Posted by jAgZ28

the tta was 4th gen level.

The TTA was not on fourth generation level. The fourth generation was on the TTA's level. Study up on the TTA's ignition system, and you'll get my point. Plus, without touching any engine internals, all it takes to make the TTA run low elevens, and even tens, in some cases, is to "up" its boost (remaining completely streetable)...

Originally Posted by jAgZ28

but those others are too rare to be considered. as far as i remember the new zl1 was a 10 sec car maybe 9 its been a while since i've seen the vid...

Your missing my point. Today's fourth generation F-Body's were not the fastest. Most stock LS1 F-Body's average low 13 second passes, even w/slicks. My good friend takes his bone stock '74 SD Trans Am to the track once in awhile, and with the addition of just slicks, clicks off low to mid twelves. Yes, comfort isn't the best, and all weather idling is far from perfect, but the point was, that's a thirty two year old stock car that will humiliate my 98 Trans Am sporting a Ported MAF, Ported TB, SLP Lid, SLP U/D, K&N Filter, FRA and TCI-3500 stall...

As for the new ZL1, being compared to the old ZL1, I don't see the relevance there, to be honest. Both of them are tremendous efforts put fourth by dedicated GM enthusiasts. One is not better than the other, they are simply on the same level of greatness. Not to mention, to think that an old 427 big block from the 60's is not capeable of 8's in the quarter mile would be a very big mistake. Car's are always as fast as its maker wants them to be. The '79 Trans Am (sporting the Olds 403) could have have been released running 12's, but it wasn't (GM's choice). The turbo, from the Pontiac 301, could have been utilized on the Pontiac 400 engine instead for the early 80's Trans Am's, but it wasn't (GM's choice), and on and on. See what I'm getting at?

**69camarokid** · 10-09-2006, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

The race inspired 302's that were offered by the factory were much faster than fourteen's. Horsepower was severely under-rated due to insurance purposes, but it is well known that they were putting out well over four hundered ponies. Mind you, the 302's camshafts were designed to make tremendous power under the curve, as well as peak (in excess of 7000-RPM), and believe me, they ran faster than what was purposely quoted by the magazines...

As for the Pontiac 455, the Super Duty engine catapulted the second generation Trans Am to a thirteen second pass, with severely limited traction. It too was seriously under-rated when it came to horsepower claims, but the real torque figures it produced proved, at least to those who know how to calculate horsepower, that it made much more to what was being claimed...

The TTA was not on fourth generation level. The fourth generation was on the TTA's level. Study up on the TTA's ignition system, and you'll get my point. Plus, without touching any engine internals, all it takes to make the TTA run low elevens, and even tens, in some cases, is to "up" its boost (remaining completely streetable)...

Your missing my point. Today's fourth generation F-Body's were not the fastest. Most stock LS1 F-Body's average low 13 second passes, even w/slicks. My good friend takes his bone stock '74 SD Trans Am to the track once in awhile, and with the addition of just slicks, clicks off low to mid twelves. Yes, comfort isn't the best, and all weather idling is far from perfect, but the point was, that's a thirty two year old stock car that will humiliate my 98 Trans Am sporting a Ported MAF, Ported TB, SLP Lid, SLP U/D, K&N Filter, FRA and TCI-3500 stall...

As for the new ZL1, being compared to the old ZL1, I don't see the relevance there, to be honest. Both of them are tremendous efforts put fourth by dedicated GM enthusiasts. One is not better than the other, they are simply on the same level of greatness. Not to mention, to think that an old 427 big block from the 60's is not capeable of 8's in the quarter mile would be a very big mistake. Car's are always as fast as its maker wants them to be. The '79 Trans Am (sporting the Olds 403) could have have been released running 12's, but it wasn't (GM's choice). The turbo, from the Pontiac 301, could have been utilized on the Pontiac 400 engine instead for the early 80's Trans Am's, but it wasn't (GM's choice), and on and on. See what I'm getting at?

you sir, have my Undying allegiance

**shady milkman** · 10-09-2006, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

The race inspired 302's that were offered by the factory were much faster than fourteen's. Horsepower was severely under-rated due to insurance purposes, but it is well known that they were putting out well over four hundered ponies. Mind you, the 302's camshafts were designed to make tremendous power under the curve, as well as peak (in excess of 7000-RPM), and believe me, they ran faster than what was purposely quoted by the magazines...

As for the Pontiac 455, the Super Duty engine catapulted the second generation Trans Am to a thirteen second pass, with severely limited traction. It too was seriously under-rated when it came to horsepower claims, but the real torque figures it produced proved, at least to those who know how to calculate horsepower, that it made much more to what was being claimed...

The TTA was not on fourth generation level. The fourth generation was on the TTA's level. Study up on the TTA's ignition system, and you'll get my point. Plus, without touching any engine internals, all it takes to make the TTA run low elevens, and even tens, in some cases, is to "up" its boost (remaining completely streetable)...

Your missing my point. Today's fourth generation F-Body's were not the fastest. Most stock LS1 F-Body's average low 13 second passes, even w/slicks. My good friend takes his bone stock '74 SD Trans Am to the track once in awhile, and with the addition of just slicks, clicks off low to mid twelves. Yes, comfort isn't the best, and all weather idling is far from perfect, but the point was, that's a thirty two year old stock car that will humiliate my 98 Trans Am sporting a Ported MAF, Ported TB, SLP Lid, SLP U/D, K&N Filter, FRA and TCI-3500 stall...

As for the new ZL1, being compared to the old ZL1, I don't see the relevance there, to be honest. Both of them are tremendous efforts put fourth by dedicated GM enthusiasts. One is not better than the other, they are simply on the same level of greatness. Not to mention, to think that an old 427 big block from the 60's is not capeable of 8's in the quarter mile would be a very big mistake. Car's are always as fast as its maker wants them to be. The '79 Trans Am (sporting the Olds 403) could have have been released running 12's, but it wasn't (GM's choice). The turbo, from the Pontiac 301, could have been utilized on the Pontiac 400 engine instead for the early 80's Trans Am's, but it wasn't (GM's choice), and on and on. See what I'm getting at?

for one, i'm not "baging" old school...but you said ")? To settle such a dispute right here and now, what about the infamous ZL1 Camaro (easy elevens)? " the new ZL1's are faster so take that car off the list. but i appoligize the 4th gens aren't the fastest camaros and t/as ever produced..even though the 2002 ZL1 i believe could take all those cars. but w/e. who the hell is this 69camarokid? i have respect for old school. i know old school is fast, so stfu telling me i have no room to talk about them. respect your king

lol but ya i supose i should say that the 4th gens are the fastest generation of camaros and T/As.

**Street Lethal** · 10-09-2006, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

for one, i'm not "baging" old school...but you said ")? To settle such a dispute right here and now, what about the infamous ZL1 Camaro (easy elevens)? " the new ZL1's are faster so take that car off the list....

Kindly embellish on the specs of the new ZL1 engine, in comparison to the old, and the answer as to why the former is faster than the latter will immediately become prevalent for you...

Originally Posted by shady milkman

but i appoligize the 4th gens aren't the fastest camaros and t/as ever produced, even though the 2002 ZL1 i believe could take all those cars...

Shady, that was the point of my second response. The newer ZL1's are absolutely incredible, but the older one's were made to be just as fast by outside affiliates also. Nine's in the quarter mile is nothing new, especially not to General Motors. The earlier ZL1's were released the way they were, for obvious reasons. Suspension technology of yester-year was nowhere near today's, and if GM offered a nine second Camaro back then from the factory (which make no mistake, they could have) they might as well been giving away free tombstone's along with them...

**Street Lethal** · 10-09-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by shady milkman

even though the 2002 ZL1 i believe could take all those cars.

Here, here's a little history behind the ZL1 concept. Note when reading that not all of the newer ZL1's received the 600 horsepower package, and also take note of how an older ZL1, back on October 8, 1971, set a record of 9.63 seconds at 143 mph, while winning the Pro Stock World Championship...

Like I said earlier, both concepts (old and new) are on the very same level of greatness, and comparing them to each other would be pretty irrelevant to the discussion...

**shady milkman** · 10-09-2006, 05:56 PM

i happily forfet this argument

phatsat67 · 10-10-2006, 09:38 AM

Yeaaa.. Tobad it wasn't a copo camaro.

With the money old muscle is bringing today people put craaaazy money into the engines thus making them bad ass street cars. My buddies hemi challenger looks all stock but makes 530+ at the crank. If were talkin nitrous lets throw a 200 shot on my plymouth

haha. Anything can compete with anything as long as the owner has enough coin.$$$$$$$. LS1's are sick and so are older engines its all in what you put into them.

**Marc87GN** · 10-10-2006, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by SeVeReDiStOrTiOn

No doubt your GN is wicked fast but does it qualify as old school muscle...now that's the question

Beats me. It's 19 years old next month.

**shady milkman** · 10-10-2006, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Marc87GN

Beats me. It's 19 years old next month.

yea its like 79 on down...thats what alot of people consider old school muscle...before the gov't started stoping all of our fun

**import slayer** · 10-10-2006, 05:07 PM

I was on my way home from getting my N20 bottle filled. I was at a red light and I see a nice red 68 camaro in my rear view. We take off cruisin and he gets in front of me and stops at a red light. We take off again and I get in front of him. He's behind me at another red light. We take off and now he floors it & trys to go around me. As soon as he gets even with my car I sprayed it for 2 seconds & he fell back about a half a car. He didnt want to play after that. This was actually the first time i sprayed with my new converter from a roll. Felt good, but i need a tune.

What kind of converter do you have and what are your other mods?

**05gtoautoX** · 10-18-2006, 07:45 PM

old school muscle is anything built before 1974 IMHO, the GN is awesome but not quite old school, it is fuel injected, again my opinion. But there were some bad cars built back in the 60s-70s, just as today. Both deserve respect, the 60s cars for starting the musclecar craze and todays for keeping it going. Both have their equals and opposites in performance.

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2006, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by 05gtoautoX

old school muscle is anything built before 1974 IMHO, the GN is awesome but not quite old school, it is fuel injected, again my opinion. But there were some bad cars built back in the 60s-70s, just as today. Both deserve respect, the 60s cars for starting the musclecar craze and todays for keeping it going. Both have their equals and opposites in performance.

wasn't FI an option on some of the first corvettes? i think they bring in some HUGE bank at classic auctions

**toneloc60** · 10-19-2006, 07:57 AM

FI was an option on the '57 vette and the Bel Air.

Oh, and old school deserves much respect.
454 Ls6 '70 Chevelle SS -- rated at 450 HP 500 ft/lbs TQ, cough cough.

**Fire Chicken of Doom** · 10-19-2006, 09:08 AM

My neighbor Scott has a 600 HP GN but hes cammed, stroked, forged and like 24psi.

He hung with a Modena on the freeway and flipped the guy off

...it was funny....

...really...

...really...

...really....

funny!

**nhraformula** · 10-19-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by apache

I'm not so sure about that. SOme of those old Trans Ams and Camaros from the early to mid 70s were mean machines. The gov't at the time was introducing many power robbing emissions controls. But before those regulations, there was some serious torque and hp on those babys. You must respect the old school!

if they dynoed those old school motors by todays standards, they wouldnt be all that.
almost all of the fastest old school cars from back in the day were 13 second wonders.
i fuckin hate hearing old men talk about how their camaro this or gto that did 11s out of the factory, they are soo full of shit.
i have yet to lose to a old "stock" muscle car.

**nhraformula** · 10-19-2006, 06:23 PM

street lethal, i owned a 73 ta with a 455. the fucker with slicks did low 13s.
it was totally stock outside of the tires when i did a few runs right after i bought it. i wish i didnt hack that car up and make it a track only car, it be worth some bank now.

**Agent13** · 10-19-2006, 06:44 PM

You are correct, my 69 SS396 was a 15 sec car in stock form & my GTO runs 13's, here's the but,,,, both are still appreciating, or at least holding the gains they made in value since about 85. I can't say the same for my 02, it's worth less every day & costs a fortune to insure compared to the old cars. There is no way a stock old muscle car can compete with the performance and handling of a 4th gen, especially a LS1 car. There are always the extreme examples like Hemi Darts & Thunderbolts, but these were basically factory race cars, and they weren't rolling down main street in every town.
I get to listen to guys at cruise night talk about 11 second muscle cars, I'm sure the older they get, the faster they were.....Truth be known some of the fastest muscle cars were some of the obscure ones, Buick GSX, OLDS & Pontiac.
I've had a lot of 396 cars, love em, but they aren't show room quick, not like getting into an LS1 car with all the creature comforts & still run mid 13's, now if they would just stop depreciating !!

**shady milkman** · 10-19-2006, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Agent13

You are correct, my 69 SS396 was a 15 sec car in stock form & my GTO runs 13's, here's the but,,,, both are still appreciating, or at least holding the gains they made in value since about 85. I can't say the same for my 02, it's worth less every day & costs a fortune to insure compared to the old cars. There is no way a stock old muscle car can compete with the performance and handling of a 4th gen, especially a LS1 car. There are always the extreme examples like Hemi Darts & Thunderbolts, but these were basically factory race cars, and they weren't rolling down main street in every town.
I get to listen to guys at cruise night talk about 11 second muscle cars, I'm sure the older they get, the faster they were.....Truth be known some of the fastest muscle cars were some of the obscure ones, Buick GSX, OLDS & Pontiac.
I've had a lot of 396 cars, love em, but they aren't show room quick, not like getting into an LS1 car with all the creature comforts & still run mid 13's, now if they would just stop depreciating !!

lol no keep the depreciating comming intill i can afford a 01-02

then jump that shit up