symptoms of a breaking GM ten bolt rear end

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-19-2015, 09:28 AM

I have built my 8.8 and it looks a lot like Hawk's or shall I say it looks a lot like mine.

The Moser rear cover does help with the keep the carrier in place. Making it able to handle more torque.

What are some of your questions I may be able to answer.

**pajeff02** · 07-19-2015, 12:25 PM

A cover with bearing cap supports certainly cannot hurt. I have not ever read anything quantifying how much it actually strengthens the rear though. If I recall, the instructions were to install the cover, run the support bolts down against the caps to 5 ft.lbs., then tighten the lock nuts.

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-19-2015, 03:02 PM

^^

**qwik219d9** · 07-22-2015, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by kingls1;2933143 you can't just throw stuff in! that will cost you more later.[B

I was kindof hopeing I could just throw stuff at it.[/B]
Used rear is the way to go for now ($400-500) and save up and go after market when you can. And don't forget to look at the Strange S60. A really quality unit and fits like a glove. Do some research on aftermarket rears for 4th gen and you'll spend an entire day reading on the subject. I know I did.

from what I've read the S60 requires a shorther driveshaft?

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Obviously you'll have to do what your budget allows. If going with a used rear gear from ebay, keep in mind that likely won't be quiet and there is a good chance you'll get some mild gear whine.
Buying used like that, there is no way to really know what the pinion depth and backlash was before it was pulled, unless the seller was thorough and checked all that for you and jotted it down (not likely). So reassembly is just going to be a "best guess" and you'll have to shoot for a good looking gear pattern with marking compound. It'll get you close, but it won't be "perfect"

That's one of my pet pieves with both Moser and Strange. They pay more attention to gear marking compound and not the gauges. Problem with that is that everyones eye's are different, and everyone's opinion is different as to what looks good and what doesn't. Gauges don't lie

They do it this way because it's faster for them and they are all about getting these things out the door. Pisses me off because right on the face of the pinion the required settings straight from the gear manufacture are scribed front and center, and only takes an extra 30-45 minutes to set the correct pinion depth with a gauge. Then they wonder why people are complaining with their brand new rearends that have some mild gear whine.....DUH!!!! I've had to "tweak" them myself after the fact, and you shouldn't have to after paying $3500.

Okay rant over....

since I don't have a impact wrench can I reuse the crush sleve (just leave it in where it is) and throw a used set of ring and pinion gears (same ratio )reuse right / left shims? keeping right and left shims organized.

the odds of it being setup correctly are slim? or good enough to drive it to a real rearend setup man.

I'm thinking the crush sleve is pressing against the pinion so if I reuse the CS it could be either pressed in to much or if I'm lucky CS is not pressed in enough so then it could be pressed in a little more?

the man I was hopping could do this rebuild wanted $600. just for his labor (he doesn't even have his own shop he works at a shop where I believe the shop owner gets a piece of his work) then figure $200. for R&P set
install kit $100. IMO not whorth the effort. however throwing in a used R&P and reuse crush sleve,bearings and shins mite just be a wastes of the cost of a used R&P gear set however I allways try to look on the bright side optimisticalley.like what are the odds of getting away w/ just a gear swap and a reuse?

if this used parts rebuild is a complete failure well I guess I could sell the axels,TA girdle eaton diff and backing plates. $ toward the 8.8

edit:d some V6 f-bodys have posie traction?

and verifying a posie unit I can rotate one wheel to opposite wheel will turn same direction correct?

if it's a LSD the opposite wheel will turn the opposite direction correct?
Thanks

**Firebirdjones** · 07-22-2015, 04:41 AM

Can't reuse a crush sleeve, they are considered a throw away item. However you can buy them seperate if that's all you want, I haven't done that in a long time but they were ~$10.

You have the principle of the crush sleeve correct, once you crush them they apply a certain amount of preload on the pinion bearings. Trying to reuse one won't keep that preload, usually bearing failure is a result. Only time I've ever reused one, and not in a rebuild situation, is when you want to simply change a pinion seal that is leaking. It's a crap shoot to do this but after the new seal is installed it's critical to get the pinion nut snug and then add maybe an 1/8 turn to get some preload back on the pinion bearings. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, the whole rearend has to come back apart, new pinion bearings, and preload set properly with a new crush sleeve.

Keep in mind you can only check pinion bearing preload when the pinion is in the rearend all by itself (ie: no carrier, no ring gear, no axles to turn) So it's virtually impossible to set proper preload when doing a simple pinion seal replacement. That's why it's a crapshoot.

$600 probably isn't that far off the going labor rate for a complete rearend rebuild. Setting them up properly is pretty darn time consuming when it's done right. But I understand if that isn't in the budget.
The cheapest way to do it as far as parts go that will get you down the road reliably,,,,,,
You can get a used ring and pinion, as long as it's a GM gear, you can take a pinion depth measurement from your original before it's pulled, and set the new/used one back in at the same distance. This will get you close enough, not the desired method but in this case, probably as close as you'll get. Backlash can be set at .007-.010 and call it good, check the pattern for good measure and then hope that gear doesn't sound like a school bus.
As far as new parts go I really don't see any way around not buying a setup kit. You'll need a new crush sleeve minimum, and chances are good those pinion bearings or races could be scored. You'll want new seals in this thing anyway......So may as well get a setup kit with new bearings, seals, crush sleeve and then tackle it. That way the critical parts like bearings and seals are new and should give you trouble free operation as long as preload is set proplerly. That's about the cheapest and safest (reliable) way of doing it that I can think of so this thing isn't breaking down again 500 miles from now.

**Firebirdjones** · 07-22-2015, 04:44 AM

Correct, the Torsen rearends don't work like a typical clutch style positraction so the simple method of turning a tire to check doesn't work.

These Torsens use a worm gear mechanism that is somewhat complicated.

**qwik219d9** · 07-22-2015, 05:56 AM

I have decided not to buy used IMO to riskie.

at least w/ a rebuild That's if it can be rebuilt.
can you tell by my images of the broken pinion gears tooth that it can
actualley be rebuilt?

I'll have piece of mind about new internals w/ a rebuild not a used w/
unknown history.

my next concideration (thats if the rear end can in fact be rebuilt is a
used GM ring and pinion w/60K miles Which from what I understand is made of
softer metal compared to Richmond gears new ring&pinion.

the new ebay kit
3 23 Ring and Pinion Master Bearing Installation Kit GM 7 625 10 Bolt | eBay
w/ R&P would be only $80 more than the kit and used R&P.

I contacted a man that was recommended from a transmission shop
he has his own shop and works part time at the Chevy dealership as a rear end man.
his labor for the rebuild is $250. he will install used gears.

his shop is about 15 miles from me all on the expressway
could I reinstall the cover refill w/ new fuild and drive this distanse
or would make things worst?

proballey be safer to have it towed.
Thanks

**Firebirdjones** · 07-22-2015, 06:02 AM

Oh I'd definately tow it.

I can be rebuilt for sure. Just need another ring and pinion, a setup kit with bearings and seals, flush it all out real good, reassemble.

**qwik219d9** · 07-22-2015, 09:04 AM

what do you think about the mans $250. labor it's less than half of the usalle (what they know they can charge) I think he's a tad Country his shop is in the country. talked to him on phone he sounded real country. or has done so many REs he gets it done quick.

I believe there are only a few people in Montgomery ,AL that are experts at REs and he's one of them.

I think I mite cruise by his shop and talk to him in person not just for the TA but also for my Astro Van I think it's RE is on it's way out, that way I can look over his operation. I'm kindof particalue about folks that turn wrench on my TA there have only been three or four since I've owned it in 2001.

also what about the used GM stock R&P compared to the new Ebay stuff I'm douting the Ebay stuff is Richmond or Motive or another brand name I know about.

aren't the used gears w/ 60K miles already messed together making setup easier?

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-22-2015, 09:22 AM

Yukon Gears for 3.42 go for $248. Much better quality over Richmond/Motive (same company, one bought the other a few yrs back).

EBAY stuff I'm very skeptic about. Most times it's cheap knockoff crap.

**Firebirdjones** · 07-22-2015, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by qwik219d9

what do you think about the mans $250. labor it's less than half of the usalle (what they know they can charge) I think he's a tad Country his shop is in the country. talked to him on phone he sounded real country. or has done so many REs he gets it done quick.

I believe there are only a few people in Montgomery ,AL that are experts at REs and he's one of them.

I think I mite cruise by his shop and talk to him in person not just for the TA but also for my Astro Van I think it's RE is on it's way out, that way I can look over his operation. I'm kindof particalue about folks that turn wrench on my TA there have only been three or four since I've owned it in 2001.

also what about the used GM stock R&P compared to the new Ebay stuff I'm douting the Ebay stuff is Richmond or Motive or another brand name I know about.

aren't the used gears w/ 60K miles already messed together making setup easier?

I think your best bet (what I would do) is to cruise over there, talk to the guy face to face, check out the shop and then see what your feelings are. Usually first impressions don't lie.

Yes used gears are worn in, but the problem is to keep that exact, you would have to know what the pinion depth and back lash was before they were pulled out if you want those gears installed exactly how they were worn in. If one of those settings are off a smidge from where the gear has been used, you generally get a bit of gear whine. It doesn't necessarily hurt anything, it's just a matter of how loud and what you can tolerate, lol. Sometimes you get lucky and they are quiet. It's just a chance you take when you buy used stuff.

**qwik219d9** · 07-23-2015, 04:08 AM

I think I will cruise by and talk to the man,
I will tell him I cound'nt really hear him that well which will cover me looking like a asshole inspecting him and his shop (which is my right) I actualley did have a hard time hearing him.

after talking w/ him and I get a good impression either he'll convince me about the used GM R&P (which I'd rather have) or just get new.

The genuine GM parts sellers like GM direct on have the GM R&P
around $700. tens years ago when I needed a R&P replacement (back then it was a wear pattern due to incorrect setup)
I was told a GM R&P would be $900. so it was a easy decision on the Richmonds. There must be something to the GM stuff for it's huge price differnce compared to aftermarket
which all I can understand is there made of softer metal and will be quite. doe's softer equate to weaker?

Scott I think you'r right the Ebay gears are probablley made in China and should be avoided. can the same be said for there rebuild kits there claiming KOYO bearings? I will read a little on you'r suggestion for Yukon gears.
7 625 7 5 8 GM Ring and Pinion Installation Bearing Master Kit 99 Up | eBay
speed inc. does'nt state what type bearing there kits have
Speed Inc - Motive Master Ring and Pinion Gear Installation Kit
I'm also thinking the man is going to have the color pastse brush so I can save $10. and get speed inc. kit
Speed Inc - Speed Inc Complete Ring and Pinion Gear Installation Kit

3 series 4 channel rear end

Speed Inc - Motive Performance Gear Sets

I have know about cryogenics for a long time this maybe a good time to try it out I think the price is $40. for up to 8" R&P.
What do you Guys think about freezing parts for additionale strenght?
Performance Cryogenics

Thanks for the usalle excellent advice

**Firebirdjones** · 07-23-2015, 04:43 AM

Cryogenics works. The engine shop I use has this capability in house, and they do any and every engine part imaginable if you desire.

Yes softer gears are weaker in my opinion, they definately wear faster. They may not be as brittle but still feel they are far less superior. Richmond has a special line of these gears specifically for track use and are not recommended for the street, called pro gears (that's what they used to be called last time I bought a set)

I'll use richmond street gears and have absolutely no noise issues with them. Another of my favorites are US Gear which is what Strange uses exclusevily in their rearends. US Gear is also used at a very popular rearend shop up the street from me.
I've used Motive for other people, haven't had any issues with them and were quiet, but I don't use them in my own stuff. Those are about the only 3 I'll use.

**qwik219d9** · 07-24-2015, 03:11 AM

last post untill rebuild

The R&P bolts are a use once type bolt so I'll have brand new bolts included
in the rebuild kit.

What about Main Cap stud kit will these studs strenghen the rear end any?

are the main cap bolts also use once type? I'm thinking they are reuseable or they would be included in kit?
Speed Inc - TA Performance Main Cap Stud Kit

images installed
TA Performance Arp Bearing Cap Stud Kit Upgrade | eBay

just CMA the TA girdles bolts are also reuseable correct?

edit:I meet and talked to a man at the G15 F-body gathering
he told me that his lifes ambission was to eventualley
replace every bolt on his car to ARP stuff.
thanks

**Firebirdjones** · 07-24-2015, 04:36 AM

You can reuse your main cap bolts and such. Changing ring gear bolts is a good idea and the more complete setup kits usually come with them.

I've never studded the main caps on any rearend and never found it necessary. Girdle covers are a nice precaution if you want to spring for one, I'm not sure I would on a 7.5 10 bolt but that's your call. They preload the main caps to keep them from squirming around as the ring gear tries to climb the pinion on hard acceleration.

Also keep in mind the pinion nut should also be replaced. They are a one time use. Use your old nut while you setup the pinion depth as you will be taking that on and off several times. Then when you are ready to install the pinion for the last time, only then will you use the new nut.

I also apply a non hardening sealant to the threads when the nut goes on for the last time. This little step is often missed and as the rear gets some miles on it, they tend to seep through the threads and weep out the pinion nut, and commonly mistaken for a pinion seal leak.

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-24-2015, 06:52 AM

I did ARP studs for my mains and have the Moser rear cover because I knew what I was going to throw at my 8.8. For a 7.5

if I would have.

Main reason for the cover was because of the fill and drain ports. Having the brace for the ring gear deflection is a bonus.

**Firebirdjones** · 07-24-2015, 07:31 AM

Fill and drain plugs are nice, I usually add them myself on stock steel covers.

My biggest gripe with the girdle and it's fill plug is that it is way too high (because of the way it's cast with supports they had to move the fill hole higher)

Problem with that is you can't fill it to the bottom of the hole like the original positioned fill hole was designed for. If you do, you will spew gear oil out the vent until it eventually levels itself off.

Take a close look at the original fill hole in the side of the center section, and then look at the fill hole on the girdle when it's bolted on. It's clearly 3" higher than the factory plug.

So what I end up doing is removing both fill plugs, fill from the cover, and when it starts to seep out the original fill hole, you're done.

Now the problem with that is some of your aftermarket casting rearends don't even have a provision for a factory fill plug in the side of the housing. So you're stuck with a fill on the cover in some cases.

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-24-2015, 08:25 AM

That's what happen to me on mine. The Hiltsy mount that was welded on covers it. Something you have to live with to make it work with the rear.

I looked up the amount of required fluid and added just a few pumps more. Too much like you said will lead to one hell of a mess.

**Firebirdjones** · 07-24-2015, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

That's what happen to me on mine. The Hiltsy mount that was welded on covers it. Something you have to live with to make it work with the rear.

I looked up the amount of required fluid and added just a few pumps more. Too much like you said will lead to one hell of a mess.

Yep, break out the power washer and blow it off

It stops eventually

***SMWS6TA*** · 07-24-2015, 10:25 AM

True funny story...

So had this pvt working on a Hummer, the mechanic told him to fill the rear with the gear oil he provided. Only it was on a 5 gal box with a pump attached to it. So I get around to checking up on him (had 10 vehicles I had to over see) and he asks Sergent Mac, I filling it like the mechanic said and I can't get the whole box in because it's spilling out the more I try to fill. I look under and by this time he had a puddle about 4ft wide x 1/2" thick and the box was close to completely empty. I step back....took it all in and ask who was the mechanic. I told him to stand by. Didn't have it in me to laugh at him, he was already having a bad day.....

So I pulled the guy that was suppose to be overseeing him and told him 1st - It's not the pvt fault, you know better, never assume they know what they are doing. 2 - instead of yelling, and going ballistic, teach him what the mistake was and how it should be. 3 - have fun with clean up....

Army has =certain tasks that are driver responsibilities and the others mechanics, this was the mechanics.

So in the end the pvt learned to ask questions if in doubt and the other never assume pvt's know what they are doing.