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Would a small hole in the TB blade cause all of these problems?

This is a discussion on Would a small hole in the TB blade cause all of these problems? within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I had my car tuned recently by a reputable tuner in the area. It is a TR224 cam header car, ...

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    Senior Member Hurley711's Avatar
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    Would a small hole in the TB blade cause all of these problems?

    I had my car tuned recently by a reputable tuner in the area. It is a TR224 cam header car, TB is ported and has a hole drilled in it from a previous tuner who thought it was needed. Previously the cars idle dipped when coming to a stop or slowing down. It drove me nuts. Now, post tune the car likes to build up while driving and when I release the clutch it likes to surge, it usually hangs for awhile and than comes back down. Most problems are while the AC is running. It will surge in the 1400-1500 range and settle down after 5-7 secs back down to 100 and than to idle at 900. The new tuner seems to really think it is the hole in the blade and suggested getting a stock TB. If that doesn't work he said he will have to readjust tune and will probably have idle dipping issues again. Can a hole cause all of these problems? Or is it in the tune?

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    From what I've read, drilling the tb is not the way to solve idle problems. I would try to find a stock blade and put it in. I'm not saying this will solve your problem but its a good starting place.

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    Senior Member Hurley711's Avatar
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    Junior Member edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Its NOT caused by the hole. Its caused by your tuner not knowing how to cure idle surge.
    The Fbodys came with throttle bodies drilled from the factory. I think it was the first 2 or 3 years. But anyhow, drilling is just one way of getting to a final product. Its neither right or wrong, it is a preference.
    And BTW, the 224 should be no big deal to get right, for an experienced tuner.

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    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    there seems to be 2 schools of thought on drilling the blade. Some swear by it and others just swear at it. I personally didn't drill mine with my 228R and used the set screw method which falls into the same category. Some like the set screw and some hate it. I just figured a set screw was easier to reverse than a hole. Might be able to just use a pop rivet to plug your current hole up if you chose to go hole less.

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    Junior Member edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    there seems to be 2 schools of thought on drilling the blade. Some swear by it and others just swear at it. I personally didn't drill mine with my 228R and used the set screw method which falls into the same category. Some like the set screw and some hate it. I just figured a set screw was easier to reverse than a hole. Might be able to just use a pop rivet to plug your current hole up if you chose to go hole less.
    With a 228, you dont need that much of an adjustment. with cams in the 240 range, you have to open the blade so much, you end up with a TPS reading over 1.0v
    I prefer to drill to get them close, and then make small adjustments with the screw. Keeps the TPS reading closer to normal. And yes, I know they will relearn the closed throttle position. I just prefer that my TPS reading be somewhere around .6-.7v

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    12.36@109 Red on Red WS6's Avatar
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    Ask your Tuner what your IAC counts are. If they are with in 35 to 65 he should have no problems. I really don't think you need a different TB, unless you have a 1/4 inch hole in there.

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    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcmat-l1 View Post
    With a 228, you dont need that much of an adjustment. with cams in the 240 range, you have to open the blade so much, you end up with a TPS reading over 1.0v
    I prefer to drill to get them close, and then make small adjustments with the screw. Keeps the TPS reading closer to normal. And yes, I know they will relearn the closed throttle position. I just prefer that my TPS reading be somewhere around .6-.7v
    I agree with everything you said there. I tried just using the airflow tables with mine but that wasn't working out so I cracked the blade. My tps is .65 right now and I've read .6 is as far as you want to go because it starts messing with what trim cell you're in. I haven't really noticed a problem with that but at the moment I'm in SD so no trim cells period.

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    Member 408WS6's Avatar
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    Sounds like he just needs to tweak the RAF (Running air flow) tables. I had these problems until I added 2-3 grams per second across my RAF It idles much better now. There is also an input for running airflow with the AC on, so these values could be totally out of whack.

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    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcmat-l1 View Post
    With a 228, you dont need that much of an adjustment. with cams in the 240 range, you have to open the blade so much, you end up with a TPS reading over 1.0v
    I prefer to drill to get them close, and then make small adjustments with the screw. Keeps the TPS reading closer to normal. And yes, I know they will relearn the closed throttle position. I just prefer that my TPS reading be somewhere around .6-.7v

    I do the same.... keep an eye on the set-screw tweaks; you reach a point (4-6% past factory) where it will NOT reset back to 0% TP, which is why this needs to be done by looking at a scanner and not Bubba's backyard idle tooning (not calling you that Ed). If your TPS never makes it back to 0% it will give you grief because idle and return to idle will not be handled properly.

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    Junior Member edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I do the same.... keep an eye on the set-screw tweaks; you reach a point (4-6% past factory) where it will NOT reset back to 0% TP, which is why this needs to be done by looking at a scanner and not Bubba's backyard idle tooning (not calling you that Ed). If your TPS never makes it back to 0% it will give you grief because idle and return to idle will not be handled properly.
    Yep. and I'm sure you know, on some of the more radical cam cars, you cannot get them enough air by cracking the blade, without the tps going too high. Regardless how much you add to the idle air tables. You still have to physically get it air. And keep the IAC in line.
    I've been drilling blades in carbs since the very early 90s. You cant make a carb run properly on almost any motor without drilling. You end up uncovering too much of the tranfer slot, and it screws with the idle mixture. This is where drilling (t-body blades) started. And NOBODY can say its an improper proceedure on a carb.
    As I stated before, its just choice. Its easier to get the motor the required air, with the throttle blade shut, or close to shut, by drilling. And its not something thats done randomly. You usually have to drill the hole several times to get it right. I start with .150 and go up in about .020/.030 increments. On carbs, because you're drilling 4 holes, I always start with .090 and go up.

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    I'm gonna start on my buddies c-5 (TR230 cam) when I finish up with mine. He has ETC so no set screw but I did notice his blade has been drilled. I'm hoping his issues can be fixed with the RAF table. His car really isn't terrible. It idles higher than commanded which makes me think he's getting to much air so that's why the hole has me concerned. I'm wondering if they went to far on the hole. He has a surge issue too. I will probably start on his car sometime next month as mine should be close enough to call it done by then....hopefully.

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    Junior Member edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    I'm gonna start on my buddies c-5 (TR230 cam) when I finish up with mine. He has ETC so no set screw but I did notice his blade has been drilled. I'm hoping his issues can be fixed with the RAF table. His car really isn't terrible. It idles higher than commanded which makes me think he's getting to much air so that's why the hole has me concerned. I'm wondering if they went to far on the hole. He has a surge issue too. I will probably start on his car sometime next month as mine should be close enough to call it done by then....hopefully.
    ETCs are a different story. You can get those right with no hole, or in extreme cases, a much smaller hole than Fbodies. If its idling too high, higher than commanded, and the RAF table is on, the hole is too big. Or just not needed. You can TIG weld it shut if you figure out its not needed, or needs to be smaller.
    The surge may be due to the same, but can be caused by several things. Get the idle right, along with the RAF, and if it still surging, post up and I can clue you in if needed.
    I've done one or two of them . hehe
    Last edited by edcmat-l1; 07-22-2007 at 06:29 AM.

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    99% of my problems are with the AC on, it consistently surges when I let it out of gear and hangs in the 1500 range and takes a good while to fall back down. It's embarrassing when the car is sitting in traffic revving at 1500 RPMs when I am at a standstill. Are there diff settings with the AC on? I am going to try a rivet today.

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    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurley711 View Post
    99% of my problems are with the AC on, it consistently surges when I let it out of gear and hangs in the 1500 range and takes a good while to fall back down. It's embarrassing when the car is sitting in traffic revving at 1500 RPMs when I am at a standstill. Are there diff settings with the AC on? I am going to try a rivet today.
    yes, there are a/c on and a/c off settings under the adaptive idle. It also sounds like maybe your throttle cracker and follower tables need adjusted. Keep in mind that if you close that hole it will effect your a/c off air as well. Might cause some stalling issues. Your best bet is to have someone work over your tables again. That's what it sounds like to me.

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    Senior Member Hurley711's Avatar
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    Put a rivet in it today, drove it around for awhile with not much issue. I am not gauging it until tomorrow though when I drive it to work in stop and go, that's where my problems have occurred. I will check back tomorrow with an update. Thanks for all input here though.

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    Junior Member edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    yes, there are a/c on and a/c off settings under the adaptive idle. It also sounds like maybe your throttle cracker and follower tables need adjusted. Keep in mind that if you close that hole it will effect your a/c off air as well. Might cause some stalling issues. Your best bet is to have someone work over your tables again. That's what it sounds like to me.
    I agree.....

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    Senior Member Hurley711's Avatar
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    Ok gonna have to give a better update tomorrow, really didn't hit stop and go traffic today enough to judge. Here is what did happen though. On the way home, I had to come to complete stops around 9-10 times. EVERYTIME when I decelerated to under 5 mph and shifted back into 1st from whatever gear I was in, the RPMS would be at about 1100-1200, it would surge up to 1500-1600 when I pushed the clutch in, hang for about a sec or 2 and than immed. drop back dwon. Not a major hang by any means, but it did surge to get up there before coming back down. Is that normal or acceptable? Again, I will have to wait until tom to give a report on 4-5 miles of stop and go where I drive 1st gear 2nd gear stop the whole way, that's where the major issues came up last time. Again, thanks for any help.

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    Senior Member Hurley711's Avatar
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    guys I just realized that the blade has a small hole from the factory right? I filkled mine all the way with the rivet, should I redrill a stock size hole and if so how big is the stock hole?

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    Junior Member edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcmat-l1 View Post
    The Fbodys came with throttle bodies drilled from the factory. I think it was the first 2 or 3 years.
    HHHMMM.....See post #4.
    Drill out the pop rivet, and get it tuned properly.
    You can try closing your throttle blade with the set screw and see if you get the same result as you had with the pop rivet in.
    give it plenty of drive time so it can get its mind straight, after you close the blade with the set screw.

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