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Playing with timing in HPtuner, hum ho results

This is a discussion on Playing with timing in HPtuner, hum ho results within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Well after datalogging my 02 SS and finding the total timing at only a whopping 19 degrees and it doesn't ...

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Playing with timing in HPtuner, hum ho results

    Well after datalogging my 02 SS and finding the total timing at only a whopping 19 degrees and it doesn't come in until 5,000 rpms,,,lol,,,,I decided to start playing with that. My first change was to bump the entire timing table up 2 degrees and go for a drive. There was no timing being pulled out at all under the knock histogram and the car ran fine. So with only now 21 degrees of total I decided to bump that up and have it come in much sooner.
    I started ramping it up from 20 degrees and had a total of 26 by 2,400 rpms. I noticed a little more seat of the pants grunt now, but the hystogram showed it was pulling out 1 degree in a few spots and 2 degrees in only 2 blocks. So I decided to keep the total at 2,400 rpms for now but I knocked it down to 24 degrees.
    I'm not done playing with it but I find it strange the motor is picking up knock at only 26 degrees, with aluminum heads and only 10:1 compression, and I run 94 octane pump gas as well. Seems kinda sensative to me. I know 1-2 degrees is not alot of knock but at such a small amount of timing with decent pump gas I was kinda shocked.
    I run higher compression with cast iron heads on other engines I have, and run 32 degrees total without issues. I thought for sure I would be able to sneak up on 30 degrees or so at least no problem.
    Just thought I would share. Guess I will continue with tuning and hopefully find some good results when I head back to the track. Larry.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    for the LSx motors, it has been found that 26* is right at the best, depending on load. it's not like the old SBC where 36* was the norm. the LSx heads are so efficient at flame propagation, it just doesn't need as much lead time.

    i do find it odd that you were only getting 19* total timing though. on my stock , i usually see 24* or better.

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    I agree as well these motors like only about 25-28* timing .On LS6 type heads even less as the combustion chambers are even more efficent--Those run between 19 & 25 * The sbc and bbc motors of the past are so different to tune--we would run 40* on a sbc 9-1 motor with the timing locked accross the entire RPM range--made tunung really easy !!

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    Jesus died to save you! Killer_bluebird's Avatar
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    On my stock tune my timing was set at 19* at high rpms. In my curent tune I have it set at 23* with no problems. Here are my stock and modified tables.

    *Note my tune is not done. I'm awaiting bigger injectors so I can finish my ve and maf tuning. then I'll take a look at my timing again.
    2000 NBM Camaro Z28
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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    for the LSx motors, it has been found that 26* is right at the best, depending on load. it's not like the old SBC where 36* was the norm. the LSx heads are so efficient at flame propagation, it just doesn't need as much lead time.

    i do find it odd that you were only getting 19* total timing though. on my stock , i usually see 24* or better.
    If you look at Bluebirds stock timing table it is just about identicle to my stock timing table. My car at full throttle runs in the 76 cyl/airmass row or column,,,and as you can see it peaks at 19 degrees, and thats very late in the rpm range, like above 5,000 rpms. Below 5,000 rpms you have 16 and 17 degrees,,,yikes. Thats pretty much what I had. I can't believe the car ran as quick as it did with that little ignition lead. Guess they don't need much lead just as everyone is saying. Larry.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer_bluebird View Post
    On my stock tune my timing was set at 19* at high rpms. In my curent tune I have it set at 23* with no problems. Here are my stock and modified tables.

    *Note my tune is not done. I'm awaiting bigger injectors so I can finish my ve and maf tuning. then I'll take a look at my timing again.
    Hey Bluebird, thanks for sharing this. Thats great. I see a couple of things I may have messed up on that I can try. On mine I backed the total down to 24 because I saw a slight amount of knock as I mentioned before,,,,but I don't have 24 degrees in until 2,400 rpms,,,and I see you have about that much as low as 2,000 rpms. I may give that a shot,,,I was just trying to stay conservative to see how it acted. I probably need to blend mine a little more as well, like you did.
    In the 70 and up g/cyl areas I see you bumped those up in the low rpm ranges (under 2,000) from 8-10-12-14 etc....I didn't do that to mine, and I think mine all read 8 or 10 in those areas,,,not sure it matters because I don't think my motor runs in those areas but wouldn't hurt to smooth that out I guess. I really appreciate the graphs though,,,thanks again, Larry.

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    I looked at your stk timing table and it looks like the 19* you speak of at WOT doesn't happen til .84 grams per cyl.--On most V8-'s it never gets past .68-.72 grams--so it'll never use those #'s--the fuel curve from about 2400 to 4000 is in the .40-to .52 range and from 4000 to 6200 the fuel curve goes from about .56 to about .72. It takes a heavely modded motor --cam/hds/lt's
    or big cubic inches to get it to use more -My heavily moddded 346 only goes to .84-------On some early points in the table before .84 there are some 19's but you prob will never hit those cells either because those are low RPMs with Hi-flow--basically a motor that is pulling very hard at full throttle and only at 2500 RPM's--so you would need 19* and any more would damage the engine--

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    If you are that close to ping there's a chance you have
    been driven down toward the low octane table by knock
    learn. Be sure to log your Knock Learn Factor when you
    are trying to tune spark settings, and note if it's less
    than 1.00; that means you've got a baseline ping problem
    that's been covered up. Then any further timing you add
    may "disappear" on you again shortly.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tblu92 View Post
    I looked at your stk timing table and it looks like the 19* you speak of at WOT doesn't happen til .84 grams per cyl.--On most V8-'s it never gets past .68-.72 grams--so it'll never use those #'s--the fuel curve from about 2400 to 4000 is in the .40-to .52 range and from 4000 to 6200 the fuel curve goes from about .56 to about .72. It takes a heavely modded motor --cam/hds/lt's
    or big cubic inches to get it to use more -My heavily moddded 346 only goes to .84-------On some early points in the table before .84 there are some 19's but you prob will never hit those cells either because those are low RPMs with Hi-flow--basically a motor that is pulling very hard at full throttle and only at 2500 RPM's--so you would need 19* and any more would damage the engine--
    Hmmmm, my stock motor hits 76 and 80 grams every time I am at full throttle. It is constantly down there and only showing 19 degrees of total timing when I scan it. Not sure why your modded motor barely makes it in these tables. I seem to hit it no problem.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyblue View Post
    If you are that close to ping there's a chance you have
    been driven down toward the low octane table by knock
    learn. Be sure to log your Knock Learn Factor when you
    are trying to tune spark settings, and note if it's less
    than 1.00; that means you've got a baseline ping problem
    that's been covered up. Then any further timing you add
    may "disappear" on you again shortly.
    Well I don't know how to log knock learn or where to even find it (still new to this whole HPtuner thing) but I did copy the high octane table over to the low octane table just for the purpose of tuning it so I could eliminate any discrepancies in hopes of getting more accurate log data.
    So far I have found that the engine seems happy with 24 degrees of total as soon as 2,000 rpms without issues ( it's not pulling out timing in the histograms). I guess I need to re-enable the low octane table when I feel I have it dialed in? Is this a bad way to do it? I would think if the knock sensors are doing their job then I should be good to go. Any thoughts? Larry.

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    Jesus died to save you! Killer_bluebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Hmmmm, my stock motor hits 76 and 80 grams every time I am at full throttle. It is constantly down there and only showing 19 degrees of total timing when I scan it. Not sure why your modded motor barely makes it in these tables. I seem to hit it no problem.
    I have an cam only car and I get hits in the .80 cells from 3200-6400 rpms and in the .84 cells between 4400-5600rpms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Well I don't know how to log knock learn or where to even find it (still new to this whole HPtuner thing) but I did copy the high octane table over to the low octane table just for the purpose of tuning it so I could eliminate any discrepancies in hopes of getting more accurate log data.
    So far I have found that the engine seems happy with 24 degrees of total as soon as 2,000 rpms without issues ( it's not pulling out timing in the histograms). I guess I need to re-enable the low octane table when I feel I have it dialed in? Is this a bad way to do it? I would think if the knock sensors are doing their job then I should be good to go. Any thoughts? Larry.
    In the scanner you can log the Knock learn Factor my adding the PID to your table display. It is under Engine>Retard. I'm also a newb but I think you are doing it right. By copying the High Octane over the low octane you remove any interpolation between the 2 that the computer might do if any knock is detected. Only when you have disabled the Maf (runing in SD mode) that the computer uses only the Low octane table exclusively.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer_bluebird View Post
    I have an cam only car and I get hits in the .80 cells from 3200-6400 rpms and in the .84 cells between 4400-5600rpms.

    In the scanner you can log the Knock learn Factor my adding the PID to your table display. It is under Engine>Retard. I'm also a newb but I think you are doing it right. By copying the High Octane over the low octane you remove any interpolation between the 2 that the computer might do if any knock is detected. Only when you have disabled the Maf (runing in SD mode) that the computer uses only the Low octane table exclusively.
    You just brought up another point I was not aware of in that last sentence. I didn't know when I am in SD mode the computer uses the low octane timing table exclusively.
    I use SD mode when I am tuning the VE tables, and it would be nice for the car to use the timing tables I have programmed right now, because as everyone knows, once you start moving the timing around it also changes your A/F ratios. And it's kind of a back and forth thing.
    Now you have me thinking I waisted my time tuning my VE tables, because once back into MAF mode and using high octane timing tables,,,now my VE Fuel has changed.
    That kinda bothers me. Am I just being picky here?
    Can I copy the high octane over to the low octane table when I am in SD mode so I get more accurate results? Or is this a bad idea?

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    Jesus died to save you! Killer_bluebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Can I copy the high octane over to the low octane table when I am in SD mode so I get more accurate results? Or is this a bad idea?
    Personally I just copied my high octane table over my low octane table. Then I tuned my VE keeping an eye out for any knock on the histograms. If there is any knock I copy the table and subtract it from my current low octane table. Once VE is done, you can tune your maf, then finally your spark and PE.

    I suppose if you really want to do an low octane table you can wait until your tank almost empty and put half a tank of cheap stuff. Run a few logs and add the amount of knock in the VE/knock histogram to your low octane spark table until non exist. But most of us don't run the cheap stuff or travel far enough to find ourselves in a communist state that does not carry 91 octane gas.
    Last edited by Killer_bluebird; 04-28-2007 at 10:15 PM.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Can I copy the high octane over to the low octane table when I am in SD mode so I get more accurate results? Or is this a bad idea?

    yes, that's what you should do. then make your changes to both tables as you go along.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Okay good, thats what I just started doing. I am getting more accurate A/F changes this way. I am copying the high octane table over the low octane table every time I make a change so that everything stays consistent. Hope to hit the track this weekend to see how the results are coming along. Thanks again fellas. Larry.

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