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mrr23, hptuners discussion

This is a discussion on mrr23, hptuners discussion within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; i tried using the vcm controls. it just doesn't like anything below 33*. maybe 31*, but starts surging again. yes, ...

  1. #61
    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    dark bowling green
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    i tried using the vcm controls. it just doesn't like anything below 33*. maybe 31*, but starts surging again. yes, i am using the park table. i add/subtract the entire table. that way i know i'm making changes.

  2. #62
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    EC Tune over at hpt always says to raise idle spark until your map is at it's lowest point. I kinda wonder if your airflow tables being off is what's messing up the whole deal. It might be that the extra spark is what's helping the idle where as if you had more air you would be able to run less spark. Just a guess. What's your ltit and stit's reading right now? I just kept playing with the air tables until I got them pretty close, they aren't perfect but close enough for me. That IAC park position table helped out a bunch.

    I moved my O2 up to the header tonight instead of in the sniffer pipe. Pretty big difference. I had a huge peak on decel that was almost like DFCO but I have that turned off. I suspected air was getting sucked into the tail pipes and evidently that's what it was because the peak is now gone. I'm still having the problem with KR but I'm gonna work on that tomorrow night. I'm gonna put some 100 octane in there and see what happens. I started to put it in tonight but I have just a little over a half a tank and it would take $50 worth of 100 octane to raise the octane up on that. $5 a gallon.
    I took some timing out in the spot I'm seeing knock but forgot to copy it to the low table so that was a pointless endevour. I'll copy it over tomorrow night.
    Last edited by 0rion; 07-12-2007 at 01:38 AM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    dark bowling green
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    STIT in park is -2.xx in gear is 0.xx. if i put the STIT to near 0 in park, then in gear gets screwed up. so, i decided that in gear is more important than park.

    as far as getting the base running airflow table to match the desired idle airflow, just doesn't happen for me. when i match it, the idle goes haywire. my thoughts are the desired idle airflow should match what the maf is saying. after all, why should it be less/more than that?

  4. #64
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    desired idle airflow = stit+ltit+base
    It may sound off the wall but have you tried actually lowering your base number and using the IAC table to raise your airflow? My base numbers were getting out of hand. At startup my 20C cell was like 21-23 g/sec at one time. I noticed that as I started lowering that and raising the iac table the idle got much better and my stit's and ltit's started falling into line. I got my 20c cell down to 17 which is still high but the car is doing ok with it and my 20c is where my idle surges a bit but nothing I can't live with. As soon as it enters the 40c cell my stit's and ltit's go to .04 or so and stay there until full operating temp. Just try lowering your base air a little and see what happens. I think I'm seeing like 7's and 8's at 40c+.

  5. #65
    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    i've stuck with a stock base and have been adding to the friction initial airflow and startup initial airflow tables for idle. i did add 2 g/sec to the IAC and it helped.

    my initial startup airflow is 15-16 g/sec.


    now that you explained it that way, maybe i can get this thing squared away.

    my temps here in florida put me in the 60* and 80*C cells

    my base right now is lower than stock tables with 60 = 7.19 and 80 = 5.50 with 16 and 12 in the IAC Park Position Airflow.

    i smoothed my IAC Steps vs Effective Area to slow the surging. if i have some time tomorrow, i'll readjust my base table back to stock and go from there.

    right now it starts and rives pretty good, so i'm not messing with it much.

  6. #66
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    I found when doing mine that less is more. The fewer of those tables I jacked with the better off I was. I added a little here and there trying different stuff and if it got better I left it alone and moved to something else. I did increase my airflow initial and stuff like that a little bit but on my IAC park table I ended up at +4 over stock in my start up cell ( 20C) and then dropped to +2 in the cells that followed.

    I put 100 octane in mine and logged my ve tonight for a while. Looks like I'll be ordering knock sensors this week. I reduced timing in that problem area and had the 100 octane in there and didn't really see much of a drop off in timing. It may have dropped a few degrees but still getting a ton of knock right in the 2000 rpm and .36-.60 g/cyl area. I'll pull the intake and swap sensors next week and see what that does. My ve is almost done. I'm really missing quite a bit from the upper side of it 2800rpm + because I don't really want to beat on the car that much right now with the KR stuff going on. I plan on running OLSD for a little while so I have plenty of time to get the table on. I'm a little lean idle in gear and a little rich on decels but I think I can nail both of those down on the next flash. After the kr problem is solved I'll work on high map low rpm's and then my wot stuff. I went wot a couple of times tonight and I'm not extremely far off but I'm a little lean. I also get a lean shot on tip in that I'll have to look at. It's like it took a second for the AFR to drop once it commanded it. The MAF would solve a couple of my issues I think but I'll get the ve squared away before I hook that back up.

  7. #67
    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    i'm finally running lower timing and now i'm at 750 in gear. i figured my problem out two weeks ago. just got around to applying it.

    what i learned was, make a changed to your idle stuff, then leave it alone and run it a few days to learn it. i kept getting pissed over my making changes, because they weren't working out how i wanted them to. then, ne day i stepped away from my tune. by the time i got home with it, the idle had settled down.

    so, today i plugged in a borrowed tune and then i started idle tuning the timing in gear. i've gotten it down to 26*-28*. way down from the 33* i've had to stay at to keep it going. also, the a/f ratio is now richer.

    i'm giving this tune a few days to see if the surging will finally go away. then, i'm going for 700 rpms.....

  8. #68
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    glad to hear of the progress. You were long overdue to have some good luck. I worked on my ve a little more tonight. I have it pretty damn good right now. I really don't see how anyone gets the entire table 1% though. I have a good chunk of it under 1% percent but it would take weeks or months to get the whole table there. I think I'm gonna shoot for 2% The areas I cruise in are really good. I average probably .3% error in those cells but the further you get away from that is where I start seeing 1.xx -2.xx%. I still have a cell or two that's 3-4% but I think I can pull those down with the log I did tonight. I still haven't really worked anything over 2800 rpm until I get the new sensors. I went WOT again tonight and my afr was about 13.5:1 and that's after adding a total of 7% to the upper end of the ve. I'm gonna go way rich and work the other direction. I don't like going WOT and seeing my AFR that lean.

  9. #69
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I have been reading this stuff for a while and love it. Although I am not doing any idle tuning with mine, I find it interesting still. But you got my attention Orion with your last post. How are you tuning VE at full throttle without entering PE and screwing up the numbers? I tuned my VE,,,but I had to raise my PE enable to something like 70 gps or higher (something like that) so I could stay out of PE for the majority of the VE tuning. As a result I only tuned about 2/3 of the VE table up to about 4500 rpms or so, trying to stay out of PE. I have always read over at HPtuners never to completely disable PE for this since it would create a dangerous lean condition in heavy load VE tuning.

    Are you guys completely disabling the PE enrichment for this?

    Another question a little off topic is the MAF tuning after VE is done. I read also at HPtuner that everyone puts the car in 3rd gear (6speed) or second gear (auto) and start at about 35 mph and make a complete full throttle run to redline and shut it down. Then adjust the entire MAF table accordingly,,,,,but I thought a full throttle run for the MAF,,,,,again,,,,would enable the PE tables and throw the numbers off. Then they say to drive around in light throttle conditions to dial in the MAF a little closer for part throttle driving and your done. But I am still thinking the PE will screw this up. Any thoughts on this? Do you completely disable PE for the MAF tuning as well or just not worry about it?

  10. #70
    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    yes, you do the MAF after the VE. i just drive around with as much throttle as i can without entering PE. i've done 80 minute logs. i'm not doing VE. i
    m just doing MAF tuning.

  11. #71
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    That's the difference between tuning ve with the narrowbands and tuning it with a wideband. I set my eq ratio vs rpm table up to command my afr then I'm using the wideband to show the error between actual and commanded. This lets you dial in the entire table. Really my take on it is after you get your part throttle done it really doesn't matter if you're gonna run the maf because after 4000 rpm the ve table isn't used if the MAF is functioning. If I lived in a state other than Ohio that actually had seasons I would run OLSD but since the weather in Ohio is like flipping a coin I plan on going back to the maf at a minimum. I may go back to closed loop too but I'm still on the fence on that one.
    MAF tuning is still a week or so away for me so I have no experience with it. I would think when you go wot you want pe enabled or you'll go lean. I think at that point you're trying to get your maf in range of your ve table and since the ve isn't used with the maf enabled you'll want it to go into pe. Don't go by what I say though because this is just my take on it, I haven't even started that yet and have done limited reading on the subject. I do know the wideband takes a lot of guess work out of it and makes it much easier.

  12. #72
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Thats interesting. I have tuned my VE best I can, and it took quite a while a 3-4 tanks of gas but I have it dialed in to +1 or +2 in some areas and most other areas are at 0. I could still use a tad bit more fuel in some areas to bring the +1 and +2 down but I am actually pretty happy with it since it is very consistent accross the entire board up to about 4,500 rpms,,,which is where I stopped adjusting,,,any higher and I had trouble keeping it out of PE mode so I figured those numbers would not be acurate.

    After that was done I started on the MAF, and I have it decent, not perfect but very livable. I try not to beat myself up too much on getting every number perfect, you can really drive yourself nuts with it.

    But what I have been reading over at HPtuner is when MAF tuning these guys are making full throttle runs from a low rpm starting point and running the engine up to redline at full throttle (while logging) and then adjusting the entire MAF table,,,,but what I couldn't get out of those guys is what they were doing about PE mode. Going full throttle pretty much immediately puts the car in PE, and adds more fuel,,,which should change the MAF numbers they are logging. No one seems to answer this over there and made me pretty much assume this was not a concern.

    Just to be safe though, I only tuned my MAF in the low rpm part throttle areas up to about 3,000 rpms trying my best to stay out of PE mode. I left the adjustments as that and haven't touched them. Don't know if it's correct to do it this way but it has seemed to work for me.

    My take on that was,,,since we all know when going to full throttle, any fuel that is being added in a cell at that given time is added to the commanded A/F ratio in PE mode. So it makes sense to have everything at 0 or -1 to -2 or so. I figured anytime I would smack the gas I would be below 3,000 rpms to begin with 99% of the time, so as long as I have my Fuel Trims in line on the MAF or the VE table at 3,000 rpms or below,,,,then I shouldn't have any extra fuel added in PE mode.

    Am I correct in thinking this way? Sounds logical to me but I am just a novice.

  13. #73
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    I drove the car to work today. It's drives so well right now I'm really debating keeping it OLSD. My ve table is starting to look really good. The idle is great, transistions are great, and I'm really happy with how it's driving right now. If I hook the MAF and O2's back up and it goes to shit I'm really thinking of just pulling them off for good and running my wideband all the time. My tranny could use some work though but I knew it would because I've really spent zero time on it until I get it to driving like it is right now. I got into and banged the limiter on the 1-2 shift so I made shift adjustments tonight. Since taking the MAF off shifting from park to drive is a little rough. It acts like the line pressure is to high and I'm sure it has something to do with the MAF being unplugged. I'll look into that if I decide to leave the MAF off.

    As a side note. I got into it doing about 40mph and was blown away with the power I have now. That thing is pulling like a freight train. My AFR was in the 12.8 range through 95% of the run. I'm gonna take the wife out in it tomorrow and let her hammer it once. She's been chomping at the bit to get out in it since the install. I think the time has come.

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