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MAF Delete??????

This is a discussion on MAF Delete?????? within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I want to clean up my engine bay and have seen many pics of cars with a MAF delete. What ...

  1. #1
    Junior Member 98SSLS1OWNER's Avatar
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    MAF Delete??????

    I want to clean up my engine bay and have seen many pics of cars with a MAF delete. What are the advantages? disadvantages? Could someone please help me with this decision.

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    Member DaddySS's Avatar
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    MAF delete requires that the car be tuned to run without it.
    The plus is greater control over fueling tables.
    The minus is it allows less flexibility in how the car responds to changes.
    Some swear by it, others find it too difficult to manage.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Yep, it's called Speed Density tuning.

    I've been up in the air about it. I like the idea and all, especially since it gets rid of another electronic device prone to fail . But living at 5,000 feet and constantly changing altitudes everywhere I drive keeps me on the MAF side of the fence. Without it I think I'd be in there constantly fiddling. I'm still contemplating giving it a try on one car though.

    I would think it would depend on your situation and how/where you drive the car.

    Talk to Frost, he could give you real hands on and informed information about it.

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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    i have a SD tune....cost a lot to tune and not all tuners do SD tunes

    i would keep the MAF imho not worth the money unless you need a SD tune

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    Senior Member 00z28bubba's Avatar
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    i recall a post by frost mentioning solid sd tunes. part of it saying a solid sd tune can handle elevation changes with little to no problems.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00z28bubba View Post
    i recall a post by frost mentioning solid sd tunes. part of it saying a solid sd tune can handle elevation changes with little to no problems.
    Don't know, I'd have to get with Frost on it sometime.
    If it's anything like I'm thinking, you basically take away the computers ability to tune on the fly at part throttle, you are telling it how to fuel the car and that's it.
    Which basically sounds like a carburator of sorts for lack of a better example.

    In which case it takes a ton of tuning and experimenting to get a carbed car to run decent around here. Going from 5,000 feet up to 7,000 feet and then back down to 1,200 feet (where the track is) requires completely different tunes. As a matter of fact I have a completely different carb calibration for my chevelle up here, that isn't even close to what it likes at sea level.
    To the tune of changing about 5 jet sizes front and back, larger air bleeds, smaller idle feed restrictors etc...Nothing I have likes the thin air up here. I've got it to the point now where I can simply drop .010 size in the air bleeds on all four corners and the AFR is decent at sea level, it works, but it's not perfect. Good enough to drive on the street and takes 5 minutes to do, but not good enough for racing at the track. It sure beats tearing the bowls off the car for jet changes though (more time consuming).
    In reality it would be easier to have a spare carb setup for sea level (which I do) and I just swap it at the track.

    If speed density is anything like this, it would take an immense amount of time to dial in so it would run decent enough at various altitudes. But I don't think you could make it perfect. Driving down to the track would still require some quick tuning changes.
    Or you could leave it at a sea level calibration and just live with it being pig rich up here at 5,000 feet.

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    Junior Member 98SSLS1OWNER's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the advice guys!! The car has to be tuned anyway as I just have a basic tune to get it running. Just did cam, heads, LT's, 4.10, intake all at 1 time, so it will go to get dyno-tuned within the next week. Just wanted some advice before it does get tuned so I can make a choice by then.

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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSLS1OWNER View Post
    Thanks for all the advice guys!! The car has to be tuned anyway as I just have a basic tune to get it running. Just did cam, heads, LT's, 4.10, intake all at 1 time, so it will go to get dyno-tuned within the next week. Just wanted some advice before it does get tuned so I can make a choice by then.
    depending who tunes the car and whatnot...some SD tuners will charge $2-300 more then a MAF tune and it will take longer...on high end builds when it takes couple tune dates to get right the cost gets up there

    to me its not worth the money or BS

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSLS1OWNER View Post
    Thanks for all the advice guys!! The car has to be tuned anyway as I just have a basic tune to get it running. Just did cam, heads, LT's, 4.10, intake all at 1 time, so it will go to get dyno-tuned within the next week. Just wanted some advice before it does get tuned so I can make a choice by then.
    That's the way to do it if you have the time and money. Make all the changes at once that you want to do, then tune it and be done with it.

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    Yeah an SD tune can work. Our 2010 challenger is SD from the factory so I consider that proof that it can be done. Nothing in the manual says I need to swing by the dealer before I take a trip to a different elevation . Maybe its not the same and in that case, don't give me to hard a time.

    As far as I know Chrysler uses SD on everything and ALL their cars have horrible gas mileage compared to their GM counterpart. I blame it on the SD setup.

    So personally I'd leave it alone, its not going to make a huge difference in appearance IMHO.


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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnomee View Post
    Yeah an SD tune can work. Our 2010 challenger is SD from the factory so I consider that proof that it can be done. Nothing in the manual says I need to swing by the dealer before I take a trip to a different elevation . Maybe its not the same and in that case, don't give me to hard a time.

    As far as I know Chrysler uses SD on everything and ALL their cars have horrible gas mileage compared to their GM counterpart. I blame it on the SD setup.

    So personally I'd leave it alone, its not going to make a huge difference in appearance IMHO.
    i agree...you just see it eating gas idling

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Well technically when you tune a car, I believe you start tuning in SD mode and then turn the MAF back on and calibrate that. So in theory, you're doing less tuning with just a SD tune.
    SD tunes still use short term and long term fuel trims so the computer can adjust to changes just fine.

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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    Well technically when you tune a car, I believe you start tuning in SD mode and then turn the MAF back on and calibrate that. So in theory, you're doing less tuning with just a SD tune.
    SD tunes still use short term and long term fuel trims so the computer can adjust to changes just fine.
    first time i ever heard someone say "less tuning" with SD tunes

    guess it depends on your setup...all the tuners i have talked with said other wise and so did mike norris who tuned my SD tune

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    I can't say that I have hands on experience here, just thinking out loud. I've read some tuning guides and it seems like when you tune a car, you turn the MAF and power enrichment off (along with some other things) and just tune it. Thats essentially SD tuning. I suspect it might be a little more finicky so dialing it in exactly might take more time...IDK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    I can't say that I have hands on experience here, just thinking out loud. I've read some tuning guides and it seems like when you tune a car, you turn the MAF and power enrichment off (along with some other things) and just tune it. Thats essentially SD tuning. I suspect it might be a little more finicky so dialing it in exactly might take more time...IDK.
    true dat...same here...i can only speak from what i was told

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    Well this sparked my interest in exactly WHY chrysler uses this which to me and others think it causes worse gas mileage.

    I've not found something specifically talking about the gas mileage but I did find this article explaining a little about why they use it. It also says SD is used with or without the MAF in some scenarios which would support the tuning without MAF to a degree.

    http://www.automotivedesign.eu.com/a...libration.aspx

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Here's a quote on the subject from one of our sponsors - Tuned by Frost

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    If your tuner charges MORE for speed density (and you aren't forced induction) than for full tuning with a MAF, it tells you something about his intent from the beginning... SD implies fueling from a VE table. Your car, when using a MAF, gets fueling data from a VE table AND A MAF. If he isn't hack-tuning the car, he will be calibrating the VE and then MAF. If you are going to run SD, he can stop after VE tuning without having to calibrate the MAF. Clearly, this takes less time. However, if the tuner is going to use any of the indefinite number of 'dyno cheats' to make a nice dyno graph while "tuning" your car, then I could see him charging you more. It would, after all, take him slightly longer to do it right than to hack up things on the dyno to make WOT numbers. A possible exception is that the tuner may be really well organized and have a solid base of VE tables to work from. That would give him a table that he could nearly drop in, check, and move right to MAF tuning.

    With all of that said, if it's done correctly in SD, I don't have much use for a MAF on a GenIII car once the stock cam comes out. The inarguable bonus you get with SD is throttle response. These engines are snappier without a MAF.

    Contrary to internet legend, mail order tuning is EASIER to get right with SD. 5 cars with the same MAFs will have 5 different curves, but their VE's will all be VERY similar. MAFs age poorly and begin to report low as they get older. VE is constant. I am almost done with a line of SD tunes for bolt-ons cars. These tunes will be setup as a usual mail order, except that with a fully tuned VE, an owner can simply unplug his MAF and see what SD is all about. If he doesn't like it, no big deal, plug the MAF back in. My $$ says that if you get that back to back comparo, it's a no-brainer.

    With that said, much of it is still opinion and preference between the two. With SD, you may occasionally have 0.1-0.3 difference in WOT AFR. With a tuned VE and a tuned MAF, you can reduce it slightly farther to generally 0.1ish, but if the AFR is in the right spot for the SD setup, you aren't going to be losing power.

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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    ok NOW with people that have a built setup as in 408/big cam/AFR head/ FAST and whatnot, would it be the same take on the subject?
    Last edited by Blackbird WS6; 12-04-2010 at 06:32 PM.

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    Thanks for the quote! That is good info.

    So in 15-20 years my Challenger is going to have the same sucky gas mileage but it won't be any worse as long as everything else is in working order.

    My LS6 will be worse as long as I never clean the MAF LOL. If I clean the MAF once a year I'm good to go!

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to why or how it would affect gas mileage. Since the car should still be hunting for a 14.7 AFR via the 02's I would think gas mileage would remain the same so long as you stay out of PE.

    That's my thoughts anyway. Maybe it would have been best to post this in the tuning section for more information.

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