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HP tuners question...

This is a discussion on HP tuners question... within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by setzer6127 Ok cool.. i'm going to go buy the dealer tonight and see what their price is ...

  1. #21
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by setzer6127 View Post
    Ok cool.. i'm going to go buy the dealer tonight and see what their price is for a new MAF.. I saw that Grenetilli(sp?) makes pre-ported(cnc) aftermarket casings for the stock sensor.. is that a more stable way to tune? or are you still going to have the same problem as one thats been ground on?

    untill i'm reading to build my 427 i think i'm just going to go with the stocker like you all sugested thanks!!


    Those Granatelli MAFs are all over the place, I generally tell people to stay away from them. This LS1 board has far too large a fascination with MAF swapping. This just is NOT a place to find power.

    Why not just put all of the money that GMAF costs towards something that would actually make you faster?

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    yeah thats the plan.. i'm going to go get prices on a stock unit from GM tonight after work.. really i think my next purchases are going to be subframe conntectors and a shock tower brace. After i do a good coolant flush and change my plugs and MAF.

    I'd like to change my Cam/intake/heads sooner than later.. but i'm trying to find something that i can put on my 5.7 that i can move to a biger block such as a 6.6 or 7.0 that will still work well.

    Whats the deal on these new L92 heads/combo package from SLP? From what i've read the heads flow almost as much as the LS7's..

    If they are worth a damn then i'd just need to find a decent matching Cam.
    Thoughts?

    I know the question never stop....

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    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    check the for sale section or check with lsx heaven for a maf. It'd save you a bunch of money. The L92's won't fit LS1's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Nothing is more *real* than the street.
    not to pounce on a senior member, but if you have the money [which i assume you do, because these cars are not cheap like civics and 240SXs], do yourself a favor and find a good tuner with a load control dyno. maybe i can't convince you with words how good your tune can be, but when i say stock driveability, i mean it 100%. familiar with an S2000? okay, not a dyno queen, but for an N/A 4-banger, getting ~23mpg is crappy. long ago in my honda days i knew a guy who was a great tuner. had ITBs, monster cams, even better head than stock, yada yada, making some 257whp, even though stock is a 205whp 2.0L engine. sure, not a ton, but that's insane power from a 2.0L engine that revs to a bit over 10,000rpm. and that same tune got him 41-42mpg on the highway, and never a ping.

    guess what, when OEMs calibrate their ECUs, that's what they use. load control. they use a better type than you or i will probably ever get to use; they use AC motor/generator type, which can both retard and power, so you can get those high-rpm, high-vacuum parts of the map more accurately. and they last a lot longer.

    basically, you can tune much more accurately with a load control dyno. at least go check out a shop that has one and watch them tune for a bit while they're using the load control, not just doing power runs. it's cool and you'll see what i mean by accurate. watch a 1,300hp viper mash the pedal down, and the engine doesn't rev up b/c the dyno is controlling the engine speed (by controlling roller speed, of course). it's weird at first.
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    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I use one several times a month, I don't need to go check one out. The real world (the track or the street in high gear) still requires tweaks for serious setups after the dyno. The are a huge number of variables. A single example is the effect of air moving at 130 MPH into an intake inlet. Also, the real rate of rising cylinder temperature when raced of FI cars which results in the need to reduce timing over time or gear. To be competitive, this will change by the day. We are tuning for the track and the real world of driving, not for the dyno.

    BTW, you think I need to go "find a good tuner" for my car?

  6. #26
    Nitrous Tuner LS2Tuner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I use one several times a month, I don't need to go check one out. The real world (the track or the street in high gear) still requires tweaks for serious setups after the dyno. The are a huge number of variables. A single example is the effect of air moving at 130 MPH into an intake inlet. Also, the real rate of rising cylinder temperature when raced of FI cars which results in the need to reduce timing over time or gear. To be competitive, this will change by the day. We are tuning for the track and the real world of driving, not for the dyno.

    BTW, you think I need to go "find a good tuner" for my car?
    Yes, Steve you do!

    It's all about the dybo #'s dude!

    IAT's aint shit.
    Don't be afraid of the bottle!!! Be afraid of your tune!!!

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    L92 dont fit eh? what about the 65cc ones that slp have on summit, i saw a 70cc set and a 65cc set... i figured that the 70cc didnt fit the ls1, but i thought the 65cc would.

    Hrm...

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    l92 heads won't fit the bore of an LS1......LS2 and up.

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    But are they worth using? i plan on getting a bigger block eventually.. Or should i stick to an aftermarket head like trick flow or the alike...

    And what about intakes? do the standard aftermarket intakes like the FAST 90mm fit the L92 with those big square intake ports?

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    if you have an LS1 engine the L92 heads won't work so you'll have to go with aftermarket heads and yes, fast intakes will fit aftermarket heads but not L92 heads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by setzer6127 View Post
    But are they worth using? i plan on getting a bigger block eventually.. Or should i stick to an aftermarket head like trick flow or the alike...

    And what about intakes? do the standard aftermarket intakes like the FAST 90mm fit the L92 with those big square intake ports?
    NO L92 heads require a L92 intake. The LS motors "cathedral" style ports are too tall and narrow.


    L92





    LS


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    OK Cool... Thats what i thought but i wanted verify..

    So if you use these heads it really limits your intake.. Does anyone know if the intake that pairs with these the same as the LS7 intake? i know they are both 90mm throttle bodys.. But i dont know if their other demensions are the same..

    Or does the LS7 heads use the same port style as the ls1/ls2 heads?

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    Nitrous Tuner LS2Tuner's Avatar
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    LS7 Head


    The LS7 cylinder heads are a new design, and come fully CNC ported, setting a new benchmark for 2-valve performance. These heads are a key to the LS7's power production, with intake flow rates up 43 percent compared to the LS6/LS2 cylinder heads, while the exhaust notches up for a 26percent gain. These are serious cylinder heads, even by hardcore hot-rodder standards, and are far beyond anything ever seen in production.



    Reports peg the intake port flow in the area of 360 cfm as delivered at the engine's peak valve lift, putting the flow capabilities in a league of its own. Technical highlights here include a raised runner with substantially enlarged cross section, full CNC porting, a 2.20-inch valve, and valves set at a 12 degree angle, in contrast to the LS 1/2/6's 15 degrees or the original smallblock's 23 degrees. Note that the familiar cathedral- shaped entrance of the LS1 is gone.



    As with the other working surfaces of the LS7 cylinder head, the 70cc combustion chamber is fully CNC-ed to a glorious flow-enhancing form. The combo of 2.20-inch intake and 1.610-inch exhaust valves fills the chamber to take maximum advantage of the available bore size. The spark plug is angled towards the exhaust valve as is standard procedure in aftermarket race heads, and is positioned deep in the chamber for a quick burn. Ample quench areas at each end of the chamber maximize combustion efficiency.



    The intake configuration is the familiar cross ram plenum design initially introduced on the LS1, but the ports and plenum have been redesigned to match the requirements of the new engine. Manifold construction is of a low thermal transfer polymer, molded in three pieces and friction welded. At the front of the intake is a single-butterfly 90mm throttle body, a substantial increase in size from the previous 78mm production piece, another mod in the name of high airflow.

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    Damn Man! you are putting waaaay too much time into responding to my piddly little posts

    Answers my questions perfectly though!..

    So when i get around to bulding my 427 either need to use LS1/LS2 aftermarket, or LS7 head/intake combo or L92 head/intake combo...

    obviously depending on the pocket book.

    One last stupid question, if i changed out my K-member for an aftermarket one such as UMI's would a create LS7 then fit in the car? or would the oil pan still have placement issues?

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    Oh and back to my MAF issues.. i managed to pick up a used stock ls1 MAF for $40 plus shipping on Ebay..

    Good price for used?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    BTW, you think I need to go "find a good tuner" for my car?
    ABSOLUTELY

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I use one several times a month, I don't need to go check one out. The real world (the track or the street in high gear) still requires tweaks for serious setups after the dyno. The are a huge number of variables. A single example is the effect of air moving at 130 MPH into an intake inlet. Also, the real rate of rising cylinder temperature when raced of FI cars which results in the need to reduce timing over time or gear. To be competitive, this will change by the day. We are tuning for the track and the real world of driving, not for the dyno.
    if you're tuning on the ragged edge of performance like that, you shouldn't be driving it on the street, because the temperature changes, humidity, and the like. that is part of a good tune: not only getting AFR/IGN settings right, but getting the correction charts right, and keeping everything safe enough that if you drive it farther north or south, change elevation, drive in the rain, etc., you won't be doing any harm. yet another reason to get a really good tuner, probably pay more, but then sleep peacefully at night knowing you didn't just score your cylinder liners at the track today, even though it was hot as heck and you kept lapping for 3 hours straight.

    BTW, if you're getting a custom tune (fine, or doing one yourself), why would you bother with a MAF? seems like a waste of space and of weight, and tuning both MAF and MAP maps would take more time, i would think. if you're doing it yourself, sure, it's easier to modify a map than make a new one, but a pro should have no prob. at all. Speed-Density FTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 570SX View Post
    ABSOLUTELY



    if you're tuning on the ragged edge of performance like that, you shouldn't be driving it on the street, because the temperature changes, humidity, and the like. that is part of a good tune: not only getting AFR/IGN settings right, but getting the correction charts right, and keeping everything safe enough that if you drive it farther north or south, change elevation, drive in the rain, etc., you won't be doing any harm. yet another reason to get a really good tuner, probably pay more, but then sleep peacefully at night knowing you didn't just score your cylinder liners at the track today, even though it was hot as heck and you kept lapping for 3 hours straight.

    BTW, if you're getting a custom tune (fine, or doing one yourself), why would you bother with a MAF? seems like a waste of space and of weight, and tuning both MAF and MAP maps would take more time, i would think. if you're doing it yourself, sure, it's easier to modify a map than make a new one, but a pro should have no prob. at all. Speed-Density FTW.
    I think what he was getting at is that he's tuned a bunch of these....he does it for a living.
    I also disagree that it takes a pro to tune these cars correctly. With the information and help that's out there if someone has the desire to tune their car and does the reading and question asking that it takes there's absolutely no reason why they can't tune their own car.
    The MAF doesn't take long at all to dial in. Why not run it? It'll keep your tune more consistent.

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    Track Whore 570SX's Avatar
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    i've not been replying for LS2 Tuner; i've been replying for the OP and those like him, who are wanting to try their hands at tuning for the first time.

    more consistent? why? i spent a long time in the Honda camp (i know, i know, but hey, i've moved on, haven't i?), and pure speed-density never left me wanting. i don't know how much resolution the LS1's ECU has for its maps, but i would guess 16x16, which usually turns a nice tune.

    and i'm not saying the average person can't make the tune better, i'm just saying that for the cost of entry you could make at least 3 trips to the dyno to tune for your new cam, then retune for your new heads, then retune for your fast 90/90 . . . and you'd likely be in better shape that way as far as quality of the tune. having learned the "hard" way to tune, i.e. teaching myself on one of my old Hondas, i know what it's like to have a tuning gremlin, where you just can't find the right combination of parameters and the driveability just isn't there. i mean yeah, it drives, but not buttery smooth, and that's not just losing power but in general harmful to the motor in the long run. i.e. while you're learning, you may be causing harm to the motor.

    although probably if you're not talking about crazy modifications, that's all irrelevant, as you will only be making minor adjustments. but that still doesn't change the fact that minor faults in flamefront travel are not detectable to your butt or your ears; only on the dyno when you see the power figure start to shimmy a bit. another reason OEMs use dynos only. and that tiny bit of hiccup is imperceptible on the street, so you'll drive it a long time then wonder why your motor is burning oil in its youth, or worse.

    so it's just a personal preference to leave that sort of thing to the pros. that, and the particular Honda engine i learned on was all of $500 to $800 used. the LS1 is not a cheap motor at all! i always want my motors to last and last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 570SX View Post
    i've not been replying for LS2 Tuner; i've been replying for the OP and those like him, who are wanting to try their hands at tuning for the first time.

    more consistent? why? i spent a long time in the Honda camp (i know, i know, but hey, i've moved on, haven't i?), and pure speed-density never left me wanting. i don't know how much resolution the LS1's ECU has for its maps, but i would guess 16x16, which usually turns a nice tune.

    and i'm not saying the average person can't make the tune better, i'm just saying that for the cost of entry you could make at least 3 trips to the dyno to tune for your new cam, then retune for your new heads, then retune for your fast 90/90 . . . and you'd likely be in better shape that way as far as quality of the tune. having learned the "hard" way to tune, i.e. teaching myself on one of my old Hondas, i know what it's like to have a tuning gremlin, where you just can't find the right combination of parameters and the driveability just isn't there. i mean yeah, it drives, but not buttery smooth, and that's not just losing power but in general harmful to the motor in the long run. i.e. while you're learning, you may be causing harm to the motor.

    although probably if you're not talking about crazy modifications, that's all irrelevant, as you will only be making minor adjustments. but that still doesn't change the fact that minor faults in flamefront travel are not detectable to your butt or your ears; only on the dyno when you see the power figure start to shimmy a bit. another reason OEMs use dynos only. and that tiny bit of hiccup is imperceptible on the street, so you'll drive it a long time then wonder why your motor is burning oil in its youth, or worse.

    so it's just a personal preference to leave that sort of thing to the pros. that, and the particular Honda engine i learned on was all of $500 to $800 used. the LS1 is not a cheap motor at all! i always want my motors to last and last.
    I was referring to Frost. He tunes for a living as well. I agree that tuning their own car isn't for everyone but the software that's out there now has come a long way from where it was when the ls1 was introduced. Like I said before, if someone has the desire to learn it and a little knowledge of computers and cars I don't really see a problem with anyone learning to tune their own car. Plenty of info out there to help them along. People like Frost are also appreciated to have in the community. I've personally seen him answer hundreds of questions here and he's sent tunes my email to several on here even though he's not making a dime off of it.
    Keep in mind that these ain't honda's.

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