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HP tuners question...

This is a discussion on HP tuners question... within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I'm thinking about getting HP Tuners.. BUT i'm kinda newb at tuning.. i'm a computer programmer by day.. so i ...

  1. #1
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    Red
    1998 Firebird T/A WS6

    HP tuners question...

    I'm thinking about getting HP Tuners.. BUT i'm kinda newb at tuning.. i'm a computer programmer by day.. so i understand the process ;-)

    I guess my bigest concern is I saw that they have pro and standard and that pro lets you attach a wideband directly to the interface. IF you have standard, how do you attach a wideband ?.. Also where is the best placement for a wideband? in one of the rear O2 locations, or drill and weld a new location?


    sorry for the newb delux questions......

  2. #2
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    get the pro....it's much easier to hook your wideband up with it than the standard version. If you want to log the wideband with standard you have to find another way in such as logging it as the a/c. The pro makes it a piece of cake. The pro also lets you do stand alone data logging where no laptop is needed. That alone is worth the extra money. It's nice to log without having the laptop in the car.
    As far as the wideband you could use your rear O2 locations as long as you don't have the cats in the car. You don't want to put the wideband down stream of your cats if you have 'em. If you still have cats you'll need a new bung welded on before the cats.

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    JMAC Racing WS6ICK's Avatar
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    Orion said it all. The one thing that helped me tune is the learn@home course. I know its expensive but it goes step by step on how to tune your car. It will teach you the basics and it explains everything very clearly and not the tuner terms. Click on the link and go down to the bottom of the page at Learn-At-Home Experience. It also has 3 examples of the workbook you can download to see how easy it is to use. This course was well worth the $$$ for me.

    http://www.thetuningschool.com/classes.html

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    Red
    1998 Firebird T/A WS6

    Awesome thanks guys!

    That pretty much summed up my questions.

    I still havent decided what i want to do, because as of right now i really only need a mild tune. I havent changed any internals, just k&N cold air, de-screened and ported MAF sensor, pacesetter shorty headers, magnaflow cats/Y and flowmaster cat back, cut back the EGR pipe and took the cooliant line out of the throttle body.

    But i've also replaced all of the O2 sensors when i did the headers/Y pipe and it smells really rich when its idling. So i'm sure i could recover some MPG if i got a good tune.

    I was thinking about just getting a Max power programmer for time being untill i do some more serious changes. eventually i'm really wanting to put a 427 in her, with either an LSX block or a resleaved LS2. Then i'm going to definitely invest in HP tuners.

  5. #5
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    That's pretty much a ruined MAF. 9 out of 10 "ported" MAFs are just not repeatable and will make you chase your tail during calibration. I don't even spend the time trying anymore in most cases unless they will be replaced first. I bet your fueling is *way* off.

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    Red
    1998 Firebird T/A WS6

    Hrm.. Damn... well maybe thats my shity MPG problem then. So Mr. Frost what do you recomind from a tuning standpoint for MAF? find another stock body or get an aftermarket?

    All i really did was cut out the center peice of the two halfs and grind it down pretty much smooth.. it was more of an half assed port than a real porting sooo..

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    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    I can give you my opinion.....stick with a stock MAF. My personal opinion is that a stock MAF will support you HP wise right up to where you don't need a MAF anymore.

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    Red
    1998 Firebird T/A WS6

    OK, next question.. should i buy used and just replace the casing, or buy a new one from GM?

    Oh and what about the screen? does taking the screen out screw with the fuel tables like porting it?

    Mines 10 years old.. i dont really know what the life expectency of these sensors are.. i know they have to die at some point...
    Last edited by setzer6127; 07-20-2008 at 10:52 AM.

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    Track Whore 570SX's Avatar
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    i've done a good bit of tuning on previous engines, but have neglected so far to buy into a software/hardware package for the GenIII. let me be another to recommend that you get some education in this first. these engines aren't cheap, and you can do toast a motor in the long run with a tune that's not that good. too much fuel washes the oil off the cylinder walls too much, and too little makes for high combustion temps, if you're only off by a bit. i do not intend to ever tune my LS1 myself, because the more i learned about tuning, the more i wished i had a load control dyno to do it on. i've been around local shops while they're tuning, and the load control dynos are a tuner's dream.

    yes, a street tune is better than stock programming, but now that you've spent good money on go-fast goodies, spend a little more, do it right, and get a good tune. a load-control dyno is by FAR the best way to tune, assuming the tuner is good. but of course, each pro tuner will tell you their way is better, for some reason that sounds good, but they're trying to sell you something.
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    Red
    1998 Firebird T/A WS6

    Yeah i totaly know what you mean... I just want to beable to play here and there. Eventually i'm going to find me a decient dyno/tune shop around here there has to be some in the area. I know i got recomended a couple of Dyno shops but i never looked into if they tune or not.

    We'll see. For now i'm more interested in getting my MPG up as this is my DD. But if i can squeeze out some more HP and get better MPG all the better ;-)

    Eventually i'm planning on putting a new block in. I'm shooting for a 427.. but i may just go with a 408. It depends on how much the aluminum LSx block is going to be once its availible..

    I figure at that point i may need to do things like turn A.I.R. off and EGR off and what not so the thing will run so i can get it really tuned.

    But this is also in the far future. But if you dont have a road map its hard to get to your destination! Right?

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    Track Whore 570SX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by setzer6127 View Post
    But this is also in the far future. But if you dont have a road map its hard to get to your destination! Right?
    absolutely. i wish everybody had a plan before they asked questions.

    as far as turning off certain ECU functions, that can easily be done by the tuner as well. remember, the tuner is already using HP tuners or the like, and they're using the commercial/pro version. so anything you could do yourself, they could do, too, the difference is [hopefully] you're getting someone with a LOT of experience on these motors and they'll be able to give you a really good tune, which would give you both excellent power and good gas mileage.

    that's the best part of a load control dyno, though. you want to make sure it will run at 15% load at 1600rpm (like on the highway)? well, just set it to hold 15% load at 1600rpm and run it for several seconds. it just stays there! rather than an inertial dyno, where you start at one engine speed and apply power and the engine speed goes up. so you are only seeing the ECU's response to the engine passing that tuning point, not AT that tuning point, or in between tuning points. but yes, that transient response is also important, and a load control dyno can act like an inertial dyno to tune the transient reponse as well. that's why a good tuner + load control dyno can give you driveability just like stock, sometimes with even better gas mileage, though that depends on massive upgrades . . .

    and since i don't own a load-control dyno (although i started designing a simple one last year that would only cost $8k to build), i need somebody to do it for me. nobody will let me loose on an $80k dyno without soaking up some $$$ for their own time, so i may as well use their expertise and let them do the tuning.

  12. #12
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Nothing is more *real* than the street.


    If you are replacing the MAF and don't plan on doing the calibration, just get an actual stock replacement. Otherwise, descreen and tune away or pick up a cheap 85mm tryck MAF off of eBay if you are set on a larger one. You can usually get an 85mm Delphi MAF for under $50.

    What you can do for mileage in the meantime... if your O2s have more than 40K miles on them, move to a fresh set. Do it more often (I do 20k) with headers or headers and other mods.

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    Red
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    Hrm.. well i just replaced all 4 o2's like 2k ago.. i also put some headers on... and new cats .. after conversing in a different thread i may change my plugs and wires because i just got the crap that shmucks gave me and i'm not sure they are properly gaped..

    So should i leave the screen in the MAF untill i get a tune?

  14. #14
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Your fueling will be more accurate with the screen. With headers and a stock tune, you are already running rich at WOT (even with a screened stock MAF). This is where most of the HP is made in tuning this type of setup, getting the AFR back up to a more ideal area. If you descreen it, it will be even more rich at WOT. This costs real rwhp.

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    Red
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    OK now what about the 85mm you mentioned will that be ok to tune? or will it be inconsistent like you mentioned before..

    i'm assuming i'll need a tune with that no matter what other wise my tables will still be off, correct?


    I dont think i need that big yet as i dont even have an LS6 intake yet.. but would like to get a FAST 90mm intake at some point.. in the future again..

  16. #16
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    The thing here is to get you an OEM MAF that no one has been grinding on. There is no gain to find by doing this. The 85mm MAF works but it's table is drastically different than an OEM part so the curve needs to be calibrated.

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    JMAC Racing WS6ICK's Avatar
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    I had a aftermarket ported MAF and I kept chasing my tail on the tune. Put the stocker back on and no issues now.
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    Hey Steve (frost) Im Noticing Some Detonation At High Rpms Could It Be The Heat?? I Was Thinking About Trying My Slp 85 Mm Maf Tonight To See If It Helped Out Since The Cam And Tune?? Any Thoughts Brother
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    Red
    1998 Firebird T/A WS6

    Ok cool.. i'm going to go buy the dealer tonight and see what their price is for a new MAF.. I saw that Grenetilli(sp?) makes pre-ported(cnc) aftermarket casings for the stock sensor.. is that a more stable way to tune? or are you still going to have the same problem as one thats been ground on?

    untill i'm reading to build my 427 i think i'm just going to go with the stocker like you all sugested thanks!!

  20. #20
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS16SPD View Post
    Hey Steve (frost) Im Noticing Some Detonation At High Rpms Could It Be The Heat?? I Was Thinking About Trying My Slp 85 Mm Maf Tonight To See If It Helped Out Since The Cam And Tune?? Any Thoughts Brother
    Scott Stapelkamp MAYBE A COOLER THERMOSTAT

    Sending a PM now.

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