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Crap Tune?

This is a discussion on Crap Tune? within the Computer & Tuning forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by Firebirdjones Well that's where you'll find your HP gains. Both with timing and fueling. Were you guys ...

  1. #21
    Member zeetwentyeight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Well that's where you'll find your HP gains. Both with timing and fueling.

    Were you guys on a dyno?? I can't see why you wouldn't have done any WOT runs unless something was wrong.
    Did he have a wideband?
    Yes here was a wideband being used, no no acceleration or WOT being done during the tune and no dyno

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeetwentyeight View Post
    Yes here was a wideband being used, no no acceleration or WOT being done during the tune and no dyno
    That could be why, without a dyno, you'll need alot of open road, and risk getting a ticket. Maybe he didn't want to take that chance.

    That's how I do it, but I pick a time of day with less traffic, nice flat straight roads where I can see for a couple miles, scout for cops, and cross your fingers I usually start with short bursts in lower gears, as I get closer I'll do a nice long pull in high gear for a slower sweep of the AFR.
    I also use the dragstrip once I have the car pretty close. Watch the MPH and tinker with the AFR, you'll find what the car likes that way.

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    Hey bud,try frost. I'm gonna soon. Painting lts this weekend. Install coming soon.

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    Member zeetwentyeight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    Hey bud,try frost. I'm gonna soon. Painting lts this weekend. Install coming soon.
    nice man let me know how the lts go, has anybody heard any good things about about tampa?

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    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    I am seeing some weird shit with ethenol these days. Plays hell with tunes/dyno's and A/F. I bought one of them lil ethenol measuring test kit things. Gas station said 10% and it read 17% in the test vial.
    Ethenol is changing the game and tuners better stay on top of how to tune a car with ethenol in it. If a tuner does not test the fuel for an accurate ethenol percentage prior to tuning then I would worry. A/F is different in a ethenol/gas fuel versus 100% gas. You tune leaner the higher percentage of ethenol you have in the fuel. People that say10% of ethenol makes no difference are full of shit. Watch a ECM adjust leaner with just 10% ethenol in a flex fuel car versus 100% gasoline.
    Of course then you get gas from a different station or gas up when your regular station gets a fresh load and the ethenol percentages have changed again.....so you tune to an average (safe) ethenol percentage.....it is a PITA. ...and not an exact science anymore. Al Gore will burn in hell....I hope with Jane Fonda tied to him.

    Tuning for mixed fuel is a hard thing to explain to people... You have tell them that their WOT AFR will change with it, but since all of the cheapie widebands that folks use for tuning are back-calculating AFR based off of lambda, even though stoich may be 14-14.2 for their fuel, their widebands will still display 14.7:1 at lambda 1.0 (stoich). 0.86L (12.6-12.7 AFR with stoich of 14.67) is still the target for WOT. In the real world, when you SEE 12.6:1, know that you are still seeing that 0.86L value that you want, but what you DON'T know is the actual value in AFR. You can back calculate if you know your fuel %, but is it necessary? Just food for thought.

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    Member zeetwentyeight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Tuning for mixed fuel is a hard thing to explain to people... You have tell them that their WOT AFR will change with it, but since all of the cheapie widebands that folks use for tuning are back-calculating AFR based off of lambda, even though stoich may be 14-14.2 for their fuel, their widebands will still display 14.7:1 at lambda 1.0 (stoich). 0.86L (12.6-12.7 AFR with stoich of 14.67) is still the target for WOT. In the real world, when you SEE 12.6:1, know that you are still seeing that 0.86L value that you want, but what you DON'T know is the actual value in AFR. You can back calculate if you know your fuel %, but is it necessary? Just food for thought.
    Interesting...

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    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Frost....we have built tables with actual %% of ethenol and how it relates to AFR.
    It just removes any doubt and elimates guessing. Simple to check the %% of ethenol with the tester.

    I agree with you and the daily driver/street beast.....it is so close it doesnt matter.
    You get high boost or high compression LSX applications and it does....as they are run on the bleeding edge.

    Just throwing it out there man......AL Gore sucks balls............

  8. #28
    We'll be back... GatorSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    I am seeing some weird shit with ethenol these days. Plays hell with tunes/dyno's and A/F. I bought one of them lil ethenol measuring test kit things. Gas station said 10% and it read 17% in the test vial.
    Ethenol is changing the game and tuners better stay on top of how to tune a car with ethenol in it. If a tuner does not test the fuel for an accurate ethenol percentage prior to tuning then I would worry. A/F is different in a ethenol/gas fuel versus 100% gas. You tune leaner the higher percentage of ethenol you have in the fuel. People that say10% of ethenol makes no difference are full of shit. Watch a ECM adjust leaner with just 10% ethenol in a flex fuel car versus 100% gasoline.
    Of course then you get gas from a different station or gas up when your regular station gets a fresh load and the ethenol percentages have changed again.....so you tune to an average (safe) ethenol percentage.....it is a PITA. ...and not an exact science anymore. Al Gore will burn in hell....I hope with Jane Fonda tied to him.
    This is just some of the ethanol 'BS' (to put it lightly) that is being kept from the public. To make it short and to the point, higher than the stated 10% of ethanol is being blended in with gasoline to avoid losing (wasting) any of their 'precious' ethanol. Since ethanol values are artificially inflated (due to massive government subsidies), ethanol producers (like ADM) are making as much of it as they can... which has led to excess inventories of ethanol relative to the amount of market demand for 'gasoline' (what we buy at the pump, which is supposed to be at least 90% gasoline). Since ethanol has a much shorter 'shelf life' than gasoline (it cannot be stored successfully but for a very short time), they are blending it in at whatever rate is necesary to avoid losing any of it. This blending rate has been higher than 10% for a good while, sometimes being significantly higher (maybe upwards of 20% or more in some cases...) from what I've 'heard' from some research colleagues.

    People like AlGore are getting rich from this and other so-called 'green' initiatives. Yea, it's 'green' alright... from the money they're raking in from us. All of this from the big hoax called 'man-made global warming' (now called 'climate change').

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    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Al Gore now tells us Ethanol does not work and creates more pollution that "he thought".....dickhead.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    And it's only going to get worse.

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Al Gore now tells us Ethanol does not work and creates more pollution that "he thought".....dickhead.
    Although I haven't heard of that particular Gore point of view, I do remember reading his views changed on corn based ethanol, its government subsidies, and its affect on livestock/people food supply/price. He doesn't support it now. And that view is gaining some momentum...but its tough to stop the ethanol making business momentum also.

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    Member zeetwentyeight's Avatar
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    And the winner is frost...... ill let you know steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Tuning for mixed fuel is a hard thing to explain to people... You have tell them that their WOT AFR will change with it, but since all of the cheapie widebands that folks use for tuning are back-calculating AFR based off of lambda, even though stoich may be 14-14.2 for their fuel, their widebands will still display 14.7:1 at lambda 1.0 (stoich). 0.86L (12.6-12.7 AFR with stoich of 14.67) is still the target for WOT. In the real world, when you SEE 12.6:1, know that you are still seeing that 0.86L value that you want, but what you DON'T know is the actual value in AFR. You can back calculate if you know your fuel %, but is it necessary? Just food for thought.
    Well here's a "noob" question: are our cars appropriately programmed to use a mixture of E-10/E-15, or are they set-up using 100% gasoline for the tune???

  14. #34
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whamhammer View Post
    Well here's a "noob" question: are our cars appropriately programmed to use a mixture of E-10/E-15, or are they set-up using 100% gasoline for the tune???
    It's not really something to say yes or no 100% to... The factory cal is created and includes a very large range of flexibility. Between trim and knock learning and the overly rich WOT settings that are OEM, there shouldn't be any issues cal-wise running these fuels in stock cars. As I previously noted about WBs, the same is true for the OEM NB's. Though stoich is defined in the cal it's not something to worry about; the NBs switch at stoich regardless of actual AFR. So... whether the cal guys had that in mind or not, there is typically enough fudge room in there to take care of things.

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