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symptoms of a breaking GM ten bolt rear end

This is a discussion on symptoms of a breaking GM ten bolt rear end within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I would upgrade to a 12 bolt rear if I had an auto, and 9 inch if Its a manual. ...

  1. #21
    Member RONS98TA's Avatar
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    I would upgrade to a 12 bolt rear if I had an auto, and 9 inch if Its a manual. When I replaced my rear well over 15 years ago, I got a Moser. Couldnt be happier.
    1998 Pontiac TA, stock heads, FAST 90, FAST 90 TB, FLP LT, off road y-pipe with cat delete, flow master muffler, comp cams 54-457-11 223/231-610/617-112 LSA, Pro charger D1SC with FMIC @ 8psi, FROST tune, VIG 3200 stall, built 4l60e, snow meth kit, MOSER 12 bolt 373 gears, Derale 13900 trans cooler.

  2. #22
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I use the 12 bolts in the 6 speeds, works fantastic. I'll go either way depending on customer, but neither are a necessity.

  3. #23
    Former Mopar Man 2002ssslp's Avatar
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    Time for that 12 bolt.
    My ride is a 2002 Camaro SS SLP #3296 with 30k, LTH, 3" Y, CME, Frost tune, K&N, ported TB, Blackwing lid, Bellows, MSD, Denso Iridium, and 85mm MAF, Bilsteins, Eibach springs, SLP strut brace, Adj. Panhard, TA Girdle, UMI, Pro 5.0, Nitto NT555
    My wife has a 2004 GTO with the rare SAP, 18" wheels, K&N Cold Air System, MSD, Ported TB, Frost tune, Denso Iridium, Flowmaster cat-back, 3200 Yank, 75k

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    Member qwik219d9's Avatar
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    silver
    99 ws6

    I was able to spin the wheels slowely seamed to turn easlalley.
    I think the ring gear is unbroken it's the pinion gear that is missing the chunk.

    when anything breaks is it safe to say the intire rearend diff. is distroyed?
    Thanks


  5. #25
    Member qwik219d9's Avatar
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    silver
    99 ws6








    is it possiable to just replace a pinion gear?Thanks

  6. #26
    Member RONS98TA's Avatar
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    You absolutely can just replace the ring and pinon, but if it was me, I would just upgrade to a stronger rear. If you are on a tight budget and the only option is replacing gears, then yes, it can be done. I would then replace the ring and pinion gear with all the seals. Probably go with a different ratio also for a lil better 1/4 mile times. It is a bit of a challenge to get the gears setup properly though. If you have never done it, its a matter of putting everything together then checking the wear pattern on the teeth of the gears with paint or paste of some kind, to make sure you have a good contact pattern on the gears. Also make 100% sure you clean all the internal parts of the rear, all the way down to the axle seals behind the rotors. You dont want any of the metal that has been rolling around inside the tubes to become another issue down the road after a rear rebuild.

  7. #27
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    They come in as a set for a reason. The gear wear over time does effect both as a whole. It may not look like there is anything wrong with the ring gear but I'm betting there is a crack or two that's just ready for a hard launch to go out.



    At least you found the problem.
    http://www.ls1.com/forums/f7/my-6-liter-build-174257/

    http://www.ls1.com/forums/f8/my-8-8-rear-build-165553/

    6.0L Block - Forged 403 built, breaking it in , Polluter Stg3 Cam, FAST 102mm Intake, NW102 TB, MSD wires, NGK TR6 plugs, Truck Coil Packs, LS3 Fuel Injectors, CC Pacesetter LT Headers, TS&P ORY, QTP e-Cutout, Magnaflow Muffler, 104mm Air Lid & Line Lock, Catch Can, Stage 2 T56, PRO 5.0 Shifter, Tick MC, Monster Stg 4 Clutch, QT SFI BH, MWC DSL, UMI: SFC, PHB, LCA's, LCA Relocation Brackets & TA, Hotchkis Springs (1" Drop), YR1 Snowflake Wheels wrapped in NT555 tires & Custom Fab Ford 8.8 rear w/4.10 Yukon Gears, WSQ Hood, 3"CM Strange Eng Drive Shaft.

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  8. #28
    Former Mopar Man 2002ssslp's Avatar
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    Never replace just the ring or pinion gear alone. Ever. If you have never set up a rear before it will be a hit or miss proposition for you until you get it right. If this is your DD I would have a trans shop do it this time and when you do get that 12 bolt you can practice on the old 10 bolt. Both the 10 and 12 bolt set up the same. You will need a new R&P set with bearings, shims (You can use the old ones if you want), Ring gear bolts, a new crush collar, seals and gear lube. Total with labor should be around 800.00 or so. Good luck and don't go too crazy with the ratio if you have a M6.

  9. #29
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    ^^ This. Also, an aftermarket gear setup should be stronger than stock. However, it is still only a 10 bolt and breaking it again is a distinct possibility.

  10. #30
    Member qwik219d9's Avatar
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    99 ws6

    Quote Originally Posted by 2002ssslp View Post
    Never replace just the ring or pinion gear alone. Ever. If you have never set up a rear before it will be a hit or miss proposition for you until you get it right. If this is your DD I would have a trans shop do it this time and when you do get that 12 bolt you can practice on the old 10 bolt. Both the 10 and 12 bolt set up the same. You will need a new R&P set with bearings, shims (You can use the old ones if you want), Ring gear bolts, a new crush collar, seals and gear lube. Total with labor should be around 800.00 or so. Good luck and don't go too crazy with the ratio if you have a M6.
    I thought there where rear end shops you say a regular transmission shop usalley doe's REs also?

    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    ^^ This. Also, an aftermarket gear setup should be stronger than stock. However, it is still only a 10 bolt and breaking it again is a distinct possibility.
    yes you are correct however stock gears are made of softer metal and produce less gear noise.

    I'm curious just how much I can do on my own.
    ?1.if I just swap in the exact same gear ratio ring and pinion (3.23 which I like and the car has been tuned for) can't I just reuse the same shims put back the same way as taken apart and expect it to be allready setup?
    ?2.can I remove and replace a crush sleve w/ regular hand tools ?
    ?3. how would I clean the inside of the diff. mineral spirits and compressed air?
    Jegs has a bunch of RE kits please recommend one for a gear swap.
    I and diffinitly on the lookout for a good used 9" or 12 bolt.

    Thanks Guy's for the usalle excellent advice
    cam-LTs-FAST78-Susp.-Rims

  11. #31
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Yeah that gearset is done, stick a fork in it.

    It'll all have to come apart to be thoroughly washed, including the housing and axles. Trash has passed through everything so a close look at all bearings and races is a must.

    At a minimum, ring and pinion and a setup kit with shims and bearings will be needed. About $3-$400 alone. Paying someone to set it up properly will be another ~$300 or so. Then hope someone cleans it well enough so trash doesn't ruin the new parts. If axle and carrier bearings are ruined that's more expense to replace those because they aren't included in a setup kit. It could easily get into $1,000 or more to repair properly.

    Reality is, it's just much cheaper and less hassle to find yourself another used 4th gen rearend and stick it in there.

    If you don't want this problem again, go aftermarket rear.

  12. #32
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwik219d9 View Post
    yes you are correct however stock gears are made of softer metal and produce less gear noise.

    I'm curious just how much I can do on my own.
    ?1.if I just swap in the exact same gear ratio ring and pinion (3.23 which I like and the car has been tuned for) can't I just reuse the same shims put back the same way as taken apart and expect it to be allready setup?
    ?2.can I remove and replace a crush sleve w/ regular hand tools ?
    ?3. how would I clean the inside of the diff. mineral spirits and compressed air?
    Jegs has a bunch of RE kits please recommend one for a gear swap.
    I and diffinitly on the lookout for a good used 9" or 12 bolt.

    Thanks Guy's for the usalle excellent advice
    Even if you swap the exact gear ratio, chances are the original shims won't get you the correct pinion depth or backlash. Each new gear set comes with the manufacture recommended pinion depth and backlash settings that must be adheared to because most new gear sets are already "lapped" in before shipping, and in order to maintain that wear pattern and have a quiet gear set, those specs must be correct. I've never had one that original shims were used. They have always needed "tweaking"

    Crush sleeve will be tough depending on tools you have. To get the crush sleeve started you can use an impact but tread lightly here. Quick hits to get the sleeve to start crushing. You still have to hold the pinion, I use a tool that bolts to the yoke and is about 3 feet long for leverage. From there I crush by hand and stop frequently to continually check bearing preload with an inch lbs. torque wrench. New bearings are usually in the 30 inch lbs. range, but check your particular application to be sure. This setting is critical for long bearing life. Before you go crushing the sleeve for the last install, you'll be pulling the pinion bearing on and off to change shims and get the pinion depth correct. I use a pinion bearing that I've honed so it's not a tight press fit, (some places sell them as "setup bearings") and remove it repeatedly until I have the correct shims. Then the crush sleeve goes on for final assembly. So in a nut shell, no it can't be done with simple hand tools.

    To clean the housing it will need to be completely disassembled, pull axles and axle bearings. To do it in the car, I jack up one side of the housing at an angle, use 2-3 cans of brake clean and hose down the axle tubes towards the end of the tubes. Wash it out thoroughly. You can then drag rags or shop towels through the axle tubes to see if you can pick up any extra debri. Jack up other side of housing and repeat for other side. You'll go through 5 to 6 cans of brake clean to do a thorough job.
    Everything else will have to be washed and inspected before going back in, including the center section, carrier bearings, axles, axle bearings etc....

    Even a used 12bolt or 9 inch will set you back $2,000 to $2500. I have sold a few used ones and get $2500 for them all day long out here. A new complete drop in unit is about $3500 by the time you pay for shipping and upgrades.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 07-15-2015 at 05:07 AM.

  13. #33
    Senior Member kingls1's Avatar
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    ^^^^FBJ is right on, You have to disassemble and start fresh. You will need some one who knows how to set up the rear you can't just throw stuff in! that will cost you more later.
    Used rear is the way to go for now ($400-500) and save up and go after market when you can. And don't forget to look at the Strange S60. A really quality unit and fits like a glove. Do some research on aftermarket rears for 4th gen and you'll spend an entire day reading on the subject. I know I did.
    99 Trans Am, SLP Lid, Blackwing filter, smooth bellow, Ported TB, LS6 intake, Ws6 lower ram air box, OBX LT's, Magna Flow cat back, LS7 clutch, Tick MC, Hurst Shifter, Frost Tune, UMI SFC,LAC, STB, PB, Torq Arm, Super Hawk hood, Torq Thrust II, Kee Audio.
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  14. #34
    Former Mopar Man 2002ssslp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwik219d9 View Post
    I thought there where rear end shops you say a regular transmission shop usalley doe's REs also?
    Yes, most transmission shops also do manual transmissions and differentials. Get a shop with a good reputation, buy your own parts and use Richmond Gears. Good luck.

    yes you are correct however stock gears are made of softer metal and produce less gear noise.

    I'm curious just how much I can do on my own.
    ?1.if I just swap in the exact same gear ratio ring and pinion (3.23 which I like and the car has been tuned for) can't I just reuse the same shims put back the same way as taken apart and expect it to be allready setup?
    ?2.can I remove and replace a crush sleve w/ regular hand tools ?
    ?3. how would I clean the inside of the diff. mineral spirits and compressed air?
    Jegs has a bunch of RE kits please recommend one for a gear swap.
    I and diffinitly on the lookout for a good used 9" or 12 bolt.

    Thanks Guy's for the usalle excellent advice

  15. #35
    Member qwik219d9's Avatar
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    silver
    99 ws6

    I'm going to make a few inquirerys about labor costs on rebuilding the RE. one man in particuale will let me help and of course observe.
    will this be a start of a rebuild parts list.
    5 cans of brake cleaner.
    GM Ring and Pinion Installation Bearing Master Kit 99-up
    7 625 7 5 8 GM Ring and Pinion Installation Bearing Master Kit 99 Up | eBay
    used ring and pinion
    82 02 Camaro Firebird 10 Bolt 7 5" 7 625" 3 23 3 Series Rear End Gears GM | eBay
    new axel bearings
    Axle Wheel Bearing Seal Kit GM 7 5 8 2 8 5 12 Bolt Ford 8 8 5707 R1563 Auto | eBay
    fuild and whale sperm.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hawks Custom 82-2002 Camaro / Firebird 8.8 Rear End Assembly - Hawks Third Generation
    Hopefully I intend on keeping the car for many more years of enjoyment and will be looking into a upgraded RE. the Hawks 3rd gen as Scott suggested appears the most senseable solution and econicale at $2200. + shipping.
    I want to find the details on this 8.8 the hawks website say to send in my backing plates how are these removed?

    What I am afraid of is with a stronger RE I will be beating on the car more than usalle which will lead to trans. and engine breakage.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm curious about the ford 9" if I had the houseing and axels
    9 inch Ford Chevy Camaro F Body 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02 Rearend Housing | eBay
    is assembling the 3rd member (which I assume is allready setup) done w/ basic hand tolds?
    Complete 9" Ford 3rd Member Rear End Gear Set Chunk | eBay
    Thanks
    Last edited by qwik219d9; 07-16-2015 at 02:42 AM.

  16. #36
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Obviously you'll have to do what your budget allows. If going with a used rear gear from ebay, keep in mind that likely won't be quiet and there is a good chance you'll get some mild gear whine.
    Buying used like that, there is no way to really know what the pinion depth and backlash was before it was pulled, unless the seller was thorough and checked all that for you and jotted it down (not likely). So reassembly is just going to be a "best guess" and you'll have to shoot for a good looking gear pattern with marking compound. It'll get you close, but it won't be "perfect"

    That's one of my pet pieves with both Moser and Strange. They pay more attention to gear marking compound and not the gauges. Problem with that is that everyones eye's are different, and everyone's opinion is different as to what looks good and what doesn't. Gauges don't lie
    They do it this way because it's faster for them and they are all about getting these things out the door. Pisses me off because right on the face of the pinion the required settings straight from the gear manufacture are scribed front and center, and only takes an extra 30-45 minutes to set the correct pinion depth with a gauge. Then they wonder why people are complaining with their brand new rearends that have some mild gear whine.....DUH!!!! I've had to "tweak" them myself after the fact, and you shouldn't have to after paying $3500.

    Okay rant over....
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 07-16-2015 at 04:43 AM.
    SMWS6TA likes this.

  17. #37
    Senior Member kingls1's Avatar
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  18. #38
    Member qwik219d9's Avatar
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    99 ws6

    The 8.8 is looking kindof good.

    One of the options is a sway bar mount welded to the axel tube

    ? counld’nt I just reuse the 10 bolts big C-clamp?

  19. #39
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    The axle tube diameter may be different, but there is no reason why a u-bolt and plate setup cannot work to mount the sway bar.

  20. #40
    Member qwik219d9's Avatar
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    silver
    99 ws6

    I waiting to hear back from Hawks ( I have a list of ?s for them they have already answered my pilliminary ?s) will let you Guy's know.

    Jeff what about the TA cover for the 8.8 is this a piece of jewerlery? or will make the RE that much more sturdier?

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