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Thread: pinion angle help please
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03-29-2006, 09:15 AM #1
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peweter metallic- 2002 camaro Z28 M6
pinion angle help please
I had -2.5 on the driveshaft and +3 on the tork bar. so that made -.50 my ? is do we want the tork side + or in the - when subtracting from the driveshaft for our pinion angle any info on this would be a great deal of help
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03-29-2006, 03:23 PM #2
that would be +.50* not -.50*. you want the pinion to be 2* less than the driveshaft angle. so, with a driveshaft angle of -2.5**, you subtract 2* and get -.5** on the angle finder.
the yoke on the pinion needs to be lower than the driveshaft. not higher.Last edited by mrr23; 03-29-2006 at 03:25 PM.
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03-30-2006, 02:44 AM #3
DS angle doesn't mean shit for setting pinion angle. Proper way to measure pinion angle (from GM Engineer) is:
1) Remove DS
2) Measure angle of tranny at face of tailshaft and record number + whether 'Up' or 'Down'
3) Measure angle of rear pinion at face of yoke where U-joint straps attach and record number + whether 'Up' or 'Down'
U-joints are made to run with equal, but opposite angles (pinion angle is set at zero degrees from factory).
If you were to draw an imaginary centerline thru the crankshaft/tranny out put shaft, and another thru the pinion shaft in the rear, the lines need to be Parallel (not necessarily in-line).
So for example; if your tranny angle is 2 degrees pointing Down - then your rear angle should be 2 degrees pointing Up to yield a zero degree pinion angle. This will be the smoothest setting.
If you want to 'preload' your rear a slight bit & have a high HP car you can get away with a -1 or -2 degree pinion angle on the street.
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03-30-2006, 08:20 AM #4
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Pewter- all bore 370 Trans Am
Originally Posted by 1QuikWS6
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03-30-2006, 08:27 AM #5
No I wasn't saying that there would be no angle when I referenced zero degrees (I did state not in-line) U-Joints do need an angle to perform correctly. But if you notice I stated that if the tranny angle is pointing Down by 2 degrees - the rear should be pointing UP by 2 degrees for a zero degree pinion angle.
The DS will still be on an angle between the U-joints - they will just be equal but opposite angles (the whole parallel thing).
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03-30-2006, 08:29 AM #6
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Pewter- all bore 370 Trans Am
my bad, i didnt read your post i was just putting that out there... i know you've been going through hell figuring out the correct way to do it. just thought Id share. Im sure you posted the correct way to adjust the driveline angle.
Nino
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03-30-2006, 08:41 PM #7
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peweter metallic- 2002 camaro Z28 M6
Thanks to mrr23 i got it. It's set at -2 for now.
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03-30-2006, 09:06 PM #8
http://bmrfabrication.com/instructions/ta001.htm and right off BMR's site is how i told shawn2002z28 how to do it.
9. Set pinion angle using the following method:
· Make sure the rear end is loaded by either setting the car on the ground or letting the car rest on jack stands positioned under the rear axle.
· Place angle finder on the driveshaft and record the angle. Now place the angle finder on the rear end torque arm mounting plate and record the angle.
· Subtracting one angle from the other results in your pinion angle.(Ex: -2 rear end angle subtracted from 0 driveshaft angle = -2 degrees)
· Turn adjuster to achieve the desired angle.
· As a starting point, most F-Bodies seem to like the following initial settings: Automatics: 1-2 degrees negative, Manuals: 2-3 degrees negative
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03-31-2006, 01:26 AM #9
Yeah, so that's how Spohn shows to do it also (and how I set mine originally - and incorrectly I might add - by blindly believing them) - doesn't make it right
I HIGHLY doubt that either of them know more on how to do this than a GM Engineer that designs the f****in suspension
So just keep on posting your method to set P/A - I'll do it my way - you do it yours...
From Inland Empire DS:
Here is what you need to know. The center line of the crankshaft and transmission output shaft must be parallel to the center line of the pinion shaft as shown in Figure 1. You will note that there is some distance between these parallel lines. The distance is caused by the angle of the components and their distance apart.
Planning these component angles is critical. Your task is to set the components up so their center lines are parallel and so that the angle made THROUGH the U-joints is 3-degrees or less as shown in Figure 2. While it is possible to run at zero degrees through the U-joints, something more than actual zero and less than three degrees seems to run smoothest.
From Rossler Transmission:
Pinion Angle
Tired of breaking cases and drive shafts? There are many books that misled you on setting the pinion angle. For Drag Racing this is simple. You are trying to set the pinion angle to be parallel with the centerline of the engine & transmission on hard acceleration. To achieve this you must first figure out the parallel setting of the rear end to correspond to the angle of the engine & transmission, then add the proper amount of pinion angle. Add 1 deg. for 4-Link vehicles, 2 to 3 deg. for ladder-bar vehicles. Place stands under suspension to duplicate vehicle at ride height. Caution do not remove drive shaft without securing vehicle first. Take measurement with drive shaft removed. (shown below)
From Mark Williams site:
Driveshaft Tech and FAQ
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Operating Angle
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Operating angles in a driveshaft are the angles between the pinion, driveshaft and transmission centerlines. The optimal angle for any driveshaft to run at is 0 degrees, where many vibrational and frictional problems are non-existent. In order to minimize power loss and vibration in an offset configuration, the pinion centerline and the transmission centerline need to be parallel. In general, the largest angle for racing applications should be 2 degrees and the centerlines should be parallel within 1/2 degree. If the centerlines are off too far, the u-joints travel at different speeds causing vibration (this is the same problem induced by poorly phased end yokes). This vibration is hard to distinguish from an unbalanced driveshaft.
Critical Speed
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Critical speed is the speed at which a spinning shaft will become unstable. This is one of the single largest factors in driveshaft selection. When the whirling frequency and the natural frequency coincide, any vibrations will be multiplied. So much that the shaft may self destruct. Another way to think of this is that if a shaft naturally vibrates at 130 times a second, and one point on the shaft passes through 0 degrees 130 times a second (7800 RPM) then the shaft has hit a critical speed. There are several ways to raise the critical speed of a driveshaft. You can make it lighter, stiffer, or increase diameter without increasing weight. This is the reason carbon fiber makes a good driveshaft, it is stiff and light and can be made to any diameter or wall thickness. Aluminum, while it has a very good critical speed is not quite as strong as steel. Steel, with good strength characteristics will have a lower critical speed.
Last edited by 1QuikWS6; 03-31-2006 at 03:00 AM.
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03-31-2006, 03:26 PM #10
and what's amazing is how in this very pic you posted shows both the trans and yoke referencing off the driveshaft. thanks for the assistance. what they are trying to tell you is to make the pinion angle the same amount of degree angle as the trans to driveshaft angle is. but, in the opposite direction of each other. again, driveshaft angle is important.
again. referencing off the driveshaft.
Last edited by mrr23; 03-31-2006 at 03:32 PM.
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03-31-2006, 04:01 PM #11Originally Posted by 1QuikWS6
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03-31-2006, 05:19 PM #12Originally Posted by mrr23
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04-01-2006, 07:45 AM #13
BTW, 02z28ls1 is correct in his assessment.
Last edited by 1QuikWS6; 04-01-2006 at 08:24 AM.
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04-01-2006, 08:12 AM #14
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This needs to be handled by PM's, not in someone elses threads!
18. Moderator or Administrator bashing
Posting a thread or reply to question or criticize moderator or administrator actions is not appropriate in a public forum. Please utilize the board's Private Message function, or e-mail, if you wish to discuss these issues. As long as you bring up your concerns maturely and civilly to the moderator or administrator in question, we will do our best to address your concerns fairly and promptly.
Dont like pulling out the rule book, but this is the tech section. Bicker amongst yourselves. Im not taking sides, but it stops here. Either edit your posts to reflect your answers to the thread startes question and that only or lock it!
Nino
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04-01-2006, 08:26 AM #15
Took care of mine - and this will be the last post for me on this board
You may now all wallow in your own ignorance
(not referring to you Nino )Last edited by 1QuikWS6; 04-01-2006 at 08:32 AM.
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04-01-2006, 10:05 AM #16Originally Posted by 1QuikWS6
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04-01-2006, 10:18 AM #17
ok let's get into this a little more in depth intelligently. we are both right in figuring pinion angle out. there are two things to consider when setting pinion angle.
1). having the pinion angle parrallel to the trans output shaft.
2). making wure the u-joints are within 3* as specified by the diagrams as 1QuikWS6 put up.
my mistake was confusing setting of the pinion angle with the operating angle of the u-joints. to set pinion angle correctly, you must also make sure the u-joint operating angle is within the specifications or you may end up with a vibration. so, after you set pinion angle, you must go and check the operating angle of the u-joints. if you cannot get into the operating angle of the u-joints, then you have to shim the trans up/down to get the operating angle of the u-joint at the trans side within specs. then you go and match the pinion angle to the trans output angle. so again, the driveshaft angle is important. just not in setting the pinion angle. which is where the confusion lies in this post.
now see, that's not so hard to do is it? i'm not above having something taught to me. i have problems with how people want to convey it.
now, maybe spohn and bmr use the operating angle as a way to set pinion angle as not to have complaints about vibration issues. IMO, honestly, with the average joe's car where he hasn't basically altered the design of the suspension (IE change from stock to a four link suspension), you won't be wrong with using the directions that bmr and spohn give you.
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04-01-2006, 10:24 AM #18Originally Posted by 02z28ls1
A= front universal joint operating angle
B= rear universal joint operating angle
this is what is confusing some. along with me. and yes, driveshafts can be warped/bent which can throw off the measurement. but, if your driveshaft is bent/warped by more than 1/4*, you could be having a huge vibration issue.
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04-01-2006, 10:50 AM #19
i've made a sticky on this important subject. if anything needs to be added/removed, let me know. this will keep the inaccuracies to a minimum.
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread...808#post224808 this one isn't a sticky yet.
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread...813#post224813 this one is stickied in my section.Last edited by mrr23; 04-01-2006 at 10:55 AM.
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04-01-2006, 10:54 AM #20Originally Posted by mrr23
i have to apologize for this as this section isn't my part of the forum. it's keliente's section to maintain.
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