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Info & question about gas saving w/4.11's

This is a discussion on Info & question about gas saving w/4.11's within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; ...

  1. #41
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Senior Member 98maro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    At 70MPH with 4.10's you'll be at around 2200RPM.

    Which means you'll lose at least a few MPG. Stock is 28MPG highway, with 4.10's I was getting 21MPG at 75MPH. Which is complete crap.

    And for everyone that says the car is faster with 4.10's, its only an illusion. The RPM's will climb faster in each gear (putting you in the powerband sooner in 1st gear from a stop) but the speedometer will not climb any faster. So 4.10's will help you get off the line quicker, but once you are moving they do not help at all. It is impossible for gears to make your car accelerate any faster - acceleration is determined by horsepower, not gearing.
    2200 at 70,,rpms are to high.. lose 7 or 8 mpg gallon is not what i want,, could give up 3-4.. and at 70 rpms under 200 is fine with me,,if i get that with 410s..ill get em..other wise i wont

  3. #43
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    Gears multiply torque. Torque does not affect the rate of acceleration. Acceleration is based solely on HP at any given RPM.



    Agreed. With 3.42's, I can cross the finish line in 4th without having to almost shift to 5th like I did with 4.10's.



    From a dig, 4.10's have the advantage of helping the car get off the line faster. This is because the shorter gears get the engine into the powerband faster.

    On the highway, exactly the opposite is true, the 3.42 car will pull the 4.10 car due to better top end and less power loss through the gears themselves.



    Speedometer was calibrated via a dynojet, so it should have been correct. My RPM always did seem higher than it should have been though, probably because my tires were shorter than 26" overall height.

    No. You already prooved your own statement. The gears themselves don't make more power, but they allow the engine to accelerate faster, into its power band quicker, and therefore if you don't run out of revs, the 4.10 geared car will accelerate quicker than the 3.42 geared car, all other things being equal, no matter what MPH you start.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    No. You already prooved your own statement. The gears themselves don't make more power, but they allow the engine to accelerate faster, into its power band quicker, and therefore if you don't run out of revs, the 4.10 geared car will accelerate quicker than the 3.42 geared car, all other things being equal, no matter what MPH you start.

  5. #45
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98maro View Post
    2200 at 70,,rpms are to high..

    You are kidding right??? Come on over and drive one of mine with 4.88's and no overdrive. You guys don't know how good you really have it with your overdrive trannies.

    2200 rpm is nothing for a cruise rpm,,,,it's very comfortable. Not to mention, going from 3.42's to 4.10's is only about a 20% change, nothing to get excited about.

    If you think that's just out of control or it's going to use too much gas,,,then my suggestion would be to buy a beater daily commuter so you can mod the 4th gen. Otherwise your best bet would be to leave the car alone.

  6. #46
    Senior Member 98maro's Avatar
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    I have 3.73s on my m6.
    The reason I want it under 2000 Rpms is because. I'm getting LTs I have a cutout now. And with the rpms at 2200 on the highway is gonna be kinda loud. Cops on my area trip bout that. Specially CHP my friends got tickets because the exhaust.

    When I get the 8.8 ford rear end I'll be getting 4.10s
    00 ss blk m6 " STOCK" strano springs, slp bilstein shocks, adj LCA, adj panhard bar, relocation brackets, 2 point SFCs welded,OEM zo6 rims black, magnaflow exhaust, CME exhaust,E/cutout, slp grille, custom front plate mount, HIDs, whistler mod, side moldings delete, slp air lid, ported and polished TB, strut tower brace, 3.73s gears, and some other parts to list!
    next to come,4.10s,ls7 clutch, ms3 or 228r cam, ported 243s, ls6 intake, ls6 oil pump. ls2 timing chain, longtube headers no cats, with a tune..
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    2200 at 70 is too much,I don't think so. My A4 w/4.56s' gives me 2200 at 53.
    'Fear the Gear' used to mean fear the car with gears,in his case it has a new meaning.

  8. #48
    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    No. You already prooved your own statement. The gears themselves don't make more power, but they allow the engine to accelerate faster, into its power band quicker, and therefore if you don't run out of revs, the 4.10 geared car will accelerate quicker than the 3.42 geared car, all other things being equal, no matter what MPH you start.
    Incorrect.

    This is not my opinion. Its physics. People will tell you all day that 4.10's make the car accelerate faster in any given gear. Not only is it not true, but its impossible.

    Shorter final drive gears will improve your acceleration in 1st gear from a stop because they get you into the powerband quicker. Once you are in the powerband, 4.10's will not physically accelerate any faster than 3.42's.

    If this were the case, you could put 5.88's in your car and run 11's bone stock. Think about it - your reasoning doesn't add up.

    Everyone thinks the car accelerates faster because the RPM's climb more quickly. The key to watch is the speedometer, not the tachometer. Acceleration is a function of horsepower and weight. Look at any drag racing calculator...where do they ask you your rear end ratio

    Put 2 otherwise identical cars side by side at 100MPH, one with 4.10's and one with 3.42's. The 4.10 car will not be any faster, period.

    If someone can prove that shorter gears make your car physically accelerate faster from a roll, be my guest. And saying you saw it or felt it happen doesn't count, physics do.

    The bottom line is if you're looking to get the best launch, yes, 4.10's will be beneficial. If not, then don't bother.
    Last edited by Wesman; 04-03-2011 at 05:25 PM.

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    Wow Wes, I understand you are trying to look at this from a logical point of view, but alot of that is just way out in left field.

    It's all a matter of gearing the car properly for a given combination, which I had explained.
    If you are making peak HP at 6,000 rpm, (lets say that's your shift point) you need to be crossing the finish line slightly above that in your 1:1 gear for an optimum ET and MPH. Otherwise you are selling the car short and not exploiting it's true potential.
    Now what ever gear that might be to accomplish that depends on many things, tire height, car weight, aero drag, torque converter, etc...

    I've driven stock LS1's at the track with 4.10's and their very short 26" tall tires. It's plenty of gear to reach the 1/4 mile marker with some rpm to spare while crossing in 4th gear. Nothing wrong with that gear for a stockish LS1 at all. I'd rather see more tire (say 28") and a 4.30 gear or so but that's another discussion.

    The only time less gear would be more beneficial (we'll use your 3.42's for an example) would be an engine that has a substantial torque curve throughout the low and mid range areas which generally works better for your larger stroker motors, or some form of a power adder.

    Just doesn't work well enough for high strung LS1's that aren't making peak torque until the 4,000 rpm neighborhood.

  10. #50
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldmanZ28 View Post
    2200 at 70 is too much,I don't think so. My A4 w/4.56s' gives me 2200 at 53.
    'Fear the Gear' used to mean fear the car with gears,in his case it has a new meaning.
    Yep, we always used to say, "put a gear in it and be somebody"


    And since Wesman wants to get into Physics.......Has anyone ever heard the phrase...."give me a long enough lever and I can move the earth"

    That's the rearend gear talking to ya

  11. #51
    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Wow Wes, I understand you are trying to look at this from a logical point of view, but alot of that is just way out in left field.

    It's all a matter of gearing the car properly for a given combination, which I had explained.
    If you are making peak HP at 6,000 rpm, (lets say that's your shift point) you need to be crossing the finish line slightly above that in your 1:1 gear for an optimum ET and MPH. Otherwise you are selling the car short and not exploiting it's true potential.
    Now what ever gear that might be to accomplish that depends on many things, tire height, car weight, aero drag, torque converter, etc...

    I've driven stock LS1's at the track with 4.10's and their very short 26" tall tires. It's plenty of gear to reach the 1/4 mile marker with some rpm to spare while crossing in 4th gear. Nothing wrong with that gear for a stockish LS1 at all. I'd rather see more tire (say 28") and a 4.30 gear or so but that's another discussion.

    The only time less gear would be more beneficial (we'll use your 3.42's for an example) would be an engine that has a substantial torque curve throughout the low and mid range areas which generally works better for your larger stroker motors, or some form of a power adder.

    Just doesn't work well enough for high strung LS1's that aren't making peak torque until the 4,000 rpm neighborhood.
    I see what you mean.

    You're saying match the gears to the cars powerband and torque characteristics. That makes sense, and I agree.

    In other words, you wouldn't want 3.08's in an S2000, nor would u need 5.88's in a Viper.

    For people with cams, ect. in the LS1s, shorter gears are definitely beneficial.

    The new 5.0 Mustangs, for example, come with 3.55's, but have an option for 3.73's. Given the cars lack of substantial low end torque and 7,000RPM redline, the 3.73's would probably be the better match.

    For a stock LS1, 3.42's are suitable, but I just think 4.10's are overkill for anything but a car with serious H/C mods and a higher redline.

    One main reason I went back to 3.42's is because I plan on doing a 6.2 conversion in the future, and with the torque of that engine 4.10's would result in tire spinning through 4th gear

  12. #52
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    Incorrect.

    This is not my opinion. Its physics. People will tell you all day that 4.10's make the car accelerate faster in any given gear. Not only is it not true, but its impossible.

    Shorter final drive gears will improve your acceleration in 1st gear from a stop because they get you into the powerband quicker. Once you are in the powerband, 4.10's will not physically accelerate any faster than 3.42's.

    If this were the case, you could put 5.88's in your car and run 11's bone stock. Think about it - your reasoning doesn't add up.

    Everyone thinks the car accelerates faster because the RPM's climb more quickly. The key to watch is the speedometer, not the tachometer. Acceleration is a function of horsepower and weight. Look at any drag racing calculator...where do they ask you your rear end ratio

    Put 2 otherwise identical cars side by side at 100MPH, one with 4.10's and one with 3.42's. The 4.10 car will not be any faster, period.
    If someone can prove that shorter gears make your car physically accelerate faster from a roll, be my guest. And saying you saw it or felt it happen doesn't count, physics do.

    The bottom line is if you're looking to get the best launch, yes, 4.10's will be beneficial. If not, then don't bother.
    Oh yes that car will. As long as it doesn't run out of revs. I'm talking about making a comparison on two cars that make the same power. The one with 4.10s will get to and go thru it's power peak quicker than the other, thus pulling away.

    If gears really make no difference, as you claim, why is/was there a "performance" gear option for the AT cars? Why were they not all 2.73?

    Here's a hint-----the 3.23 option let the car accelerate faster at the drag strip.

    It's all about compromises. What do you really want to do with the car? Best acceleration, in the 1/4 mile? 1/8? Do you want better gas mileage?

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