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How To Break a 10-Bolt

This is a discussion on How To Break a 10-Bolt within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Jeff, It's not difficult to make the little tabs and drill a hole in them to plug weld on. My ...

  1. #21
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Jeff, It's not difficult to make the little tabs and drill a hole in them to plug weld on. My father even went as far as to copy the factory design of the brake line tabs and have a large number of them stamped out just for welding onto rearends.
    I guess the gripe though is that when you pay that much for a rearend you would expect it to have brake line tabs. Especially when they have the ability to stamp these out themselves and spot weld them on for very little cost and very little time.

    Naaman, think of the S60 as the Dana60 of years before, because that's what it is. Found under a lot of vehicles like many brands of trucks, and certain Chrysler muscle cars.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Oh, so it's like this:

    12-bolt: Chevy
    9-inch: Ford
    S60: Dodge

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  4. #24
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    Here's the scoop:

    Strength: S60 > 9" > 12 bolt

    Weight: S60 > 9" > 12 bolt

    Efficiency: 12 bolt > 9" > S60

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    Senior Member Whamhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    Here's the scoop:

    Strength: S60 > 9" > 12 bolt

    Weight: S60 > 9" > 12 bolt

    Efficiency: 12 bolt > 9" > S60
    Just to make sure I read it right, for the weight and efficiency, is the one on the left the lightest/most efficient?

  6. #26
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    The heaviest is the S60 and the most efficient is the 12 bolt. That is the "greater than" symbol.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Whamhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    The heaviest is the S60 and the most efficient is the 12 bolt. That is the "greater than" symbol.
    I know what a greater than symbol is

    For all I knew , lighter was "greater". It's possible to have the lighter unit be stronger if its designed well, and with the right materials.
    pajeff02 likes this.

  8. #28
    Senior Member kingls1's Avatar
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    I would have to argue efficiency of the S60 over the 9" due to the pinion gear set up to the ring gear as the s60 comes straight out and the 9" is lower
    Hypoid Offset
    What the hell is that? This dimension is defined as the distance between the pinion gear and ring gear centerlines (see illustration). If the pinion gear were placed directly in line with the ring gear centerline, the hypoid offset would be zero, and this would really be a bevel gear rather than a true hypoid. All automotive rearend gears are a hypoid design because the pinion gear is positioned below the centerline of the ring gear to increase tooth contact and strength. Since free lunches rarely occur in engineering, the cost of this increased tooth contact is greater sliding friction between the gear teeth.

    The Ford 9-inch has the greatest hypoid offset, which means it should require more power to drive this ring-and-pinion set compared with a typical Dana 60 rearend that employs the least offset. When you look at the accompanying chart, you can see that the Dana 60 rearend appears to have an advantage based on both ring-gear diameter at a massive 9.75 inches and the smallest hypoid offset.

    Ring Gear Diameters
    Hypoid Offset
    Rearend Offset (inches) (inches)
    Dana 60 1.125 9.75
    12-bolt 1.50 8.875
    Ford 8.8 1.50 8.{{{80}}}
    Ford 9-inch 2.25 9.0
    Rear Axle Ratio Spread
    12-bolt 2.56:1 - 6.00:1
    Strange {{{S60}}} 3.54:1 - 7.17:1
    Currie 9-inch 2.47:1 - 6.14:1
    Even though the ring gear is the largest and it's the heaviest don't make it the least efficient set up and axles play a big part.
    99 Trans Am, SLP Lid, Blackwing filter, smooth bellow, Ported TB, LS6 intake, Ws6 lower ram air box, OBX LT's, Magna Flow cat back, LS7 clutch, Tick MC, Hurst Shifter, Frost Tune, UMI SFC,LAC, STB, PB, Torq Arm, Super Hawk hood, Torq Thrust II, Kee Audio.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member kingls1's Avatar
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    Illustrating 9"

  10. #30
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Seems like what Jeff is talking about is total parasitic loss? Whereas... ahem... Jeff is talking about relative trade-off being more favorable overall for the S60 than for the 9"?

    As I learn more, I keep finding myself leaning little by little more toward the 12-bolt. Mostly because I want to keep the weight down as much as possible, and make the most out of what the car can do with what it has in terms of power and "handling."

    Also, the "ideal" build would be a street worthy car with as little rotating mass as practical <--- although, I'm still figuring out what this actually means in practice.
    Last edited by Naaman; 10-06-2015 at 08:04 PM.

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    S60 also has a lot more mass than the 9" -- I don't recall exactly where the info came from, but it was back when I was researching the rear for our car. Might have been a Car Craft article...

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    S60 has 20-25 lbs more unsprung mass compared to others.
    Last edited by raynor139; 10-07-2015 at 06:55 AM.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member raynor139's Avatar
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    The drive line setup on a s60 is slightly more efficient then a 9 inch so that helps but if you put both in a stripper car and drag race it the 9 inchs lighter weight will usually give you the advantage. Most people won't ever notice the difference between the two rear ends. The hardcore guys make a big deal between the two but I've got the s60 and I've driven 2 cars with a 9 inch. To me unless your drag racing all the time it's not a big deal. The s60 can handle alot of horsepower for cheaper then a 9 inch. If weight and how much power it can handle is such a big deal then fab 9 is the way to go.

    The big appeal when I and king bought our s60 rears was that for the price it had the best bang for your buck. It has gone up in price recently.

    12 bolt is a good all around compromise if your not building a all out strip car. Can't handle the power of the other two but it is lighter and about the middle of the pack on cost.
    pajeff02 likes this.

  14. #34
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I think what Jeff was also referring to when talking about parasitic loss, is that they also take into account that the dana has a 9.75" ring gear. That larger diameter ring gear and the much more massive carrier that goes along with it does rob some HP. It's takes power to turn that stuff. Serious racers take this into consideration. Plus the aftermarket support for the 9" is unparalleled to any other rearend.

    Yes the 9" has more pinion offset which takes power to turn, but the parts inside are also lighter than a dana. It's a trade off, with the majority choosing the 9".

    I don't see todays new casting 12 bolts as the weaker of the 3. In reality I'd put in on par with the others. These castings are nothing like the original GM 12 bolts. They have been improved in every way. Everything inside the iron center casting is beefier, thicker, more webbing, they use billet caps (strange does anyway) they also have larger axle tubes. The new cast 12 bolt housings are actually about 15 lbs. heavier than the original GM 12 bolts if you compare similar applications. They are pretty damn stout nowadays. And now with 33 spline carriers (didn't have those back in the day) we can run 33 spline axles. That's more than what you need (actually it's overkill) in any street or track car.
    I've built quite a few of these 12 bolts behind stick cars that dip well into the 10 second zone and they don't complain.

    I also like the 9", very versatile which is what makes it so popular. My only complaint with some of the factory 3rd members, even the nodular cases, are that I tend to see them snap the rear pinion bearing support, once that goes it tends to blow the pinion out of the bottom of the case, usually still attached to the driveshaft. They do this because of that hypoid offset putting extra strain on the pinion constantly pushing the pinion down under load. The aftermarket 3rd members recognized this problem and they are beefed in this area. Much like improvements made in the new 12 bolt castings, the same has been done with the 9" 3rd members to address the weak areas.
    Quite honestly I don't think you can go wrong with any choice you make.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 10-07-2015 at 03:06 PM.

  15. #35
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naaman View Post
    Also, the "ideal" build would be a street worthy car with as little rotating mass as practical <--- although, I'm still figuring out what this actually means in practice.
    This is why you see more and more new cars with whimpy parts, and one reason why GM stuck with this crappy 7.5 incher. Not only were they too cheap to retool something better, the whole idea of smaller rearends is to keep the rotating mass down to help the car meet certain MPG criteria. That's why more than half the car is plastic, and why you have flimsy control arms and flimsy torque arms, aluminum driveshafts etc....
    None of this stuff is performance oriented, it's there to help GM meet CAFE regulations. Keep the weight down, keep the rotational mass down, you get better mpg.

    Now with stricter CAFE standards set to take affect in a couple years, it's only going to get worse. We've already seen cylinder deactivation, smaller engines that need power adders to get the performance back up to par, and more.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 10-07-2015 at 03:16 PM.

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    Senior Member kingls1's Avatar
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    Any rear axle assembly is considered unsprung weight, which is defined as weight not supported by the vehicle's springs. From a vehicle dynamics standpoint, minimizing unsprung weight is important. But for a typical street performance car, the difference among all three of these assemblies is less than 30 pounds, which is less than 1 percent of total vehicle weight.

    The above statements were from a car craft article where they tested all 3 and all 3 rear end's had their good points as well as bad. I think all 3 are a good choice and all 3 will be a extremely better choice than a 10 bolt. Like Chase mentioned above our choice in the s60 was the best bang for the buck and I'm extremely satisfied with my choice. I was all over the 12 bolt for long time and in the end chose the Strange. I can tell you this you will never feel the weight difference and will never feel any loss of power. You may gain a tenth or two at the track but on the street it's even Steven IMO

  17. #37
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    This is why you see more and more new cars with whimpy parts, and one reason why GM stuck with this crappy 7.5 incher. Not only were they too cheap to retool something better, the whole idea of smaller rearends is to keep the rotating mass down to help the car meet certain MPG criteria. That's why more than half the car is plastic, and why you have flimsy control arms and flimsy torque arms, aluminum driveshafts etc....
    None of this stuff is performance oriented, it's there to help GM meet CAFE regulations. Keep the weight down, keep the rotational mass down, you get better mpg.

    Now with stricter CAFE standards set to take affect in a couple years, it's only going to get worse. We've already seen cylinder deactivation, smaller engines that need power adders to get the performance back up to par, and more.
    Yes, but I figure I can get lighter in the after market by going with stronger parts (theoretically), so since I'm not concerned with volume sales, I can put more cash into the car to get the weight down and increase the strength. That's the idea anyway...

  18. #38
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingls1 View Post
    Any rear axle assembly is considered unsprung weight, which is defined as weight not supported by the vehicle's springs. From a vehicle dynamics standpoint, minimizing unsprung weight is important. But for a typical street performance car, the difference among all three of these assemblies is less than 30 pounds, which is less than 1 percent of total vehicle weight.

    The above statements were from a car craft article where they tested all 3 and all 3 rear end's had their good points as well as bad. I think all 3 are a good choice and all 3 will be a extremely better choice than a 10 bolt. Like Chase mentioned above our choice in the s60 was the best bang for the buck and I'm extremely satisfied with my choice. I was all over the 12 bolt for long time and in the end chose the Strange. I can tell you this you will never feel the weight difference and will never feel any loss of power. You may gain a tenth or two at the track but on the street it's even Steven IMO
    I tend to agree with you about even Steven with one caveat. In the military, we used to say "ounces equal pounds." Meaning that if you could get rid of enough ounces of crap in your pack, they would add up to pounds. If it can be done without compromising the reliability or safety of the car, I'd like to shed as much weight as possible from the car in total, and especially unsprung and rotating masses. If I were to save 30 lbs on the rear end, 60 lbs on all of the wheels/tires combined, 4 or 5 pounds on rotors combined (drilled/slotted, etc), then I'm approaching 100 lbs of unsprung mass reduction. Forgetting about what 100 lbs would do if it were taken out above the springs, it's (supposedly) even more effective when removed from below the springs.

    I'm sitting on 360 whp right now. I think headers will finish off my build, which, I'm guessing might be worth 40 whp if I'm lucky (I have heads and cam already... backwards, I know). If the 12-bolt can run 400 whp without breaking a sweat, then lighter is better, as far as I'm concerned.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naaman View Post
    Yes, but I figure I can get lighter in the after market by going with stronger parts (theoretically), so since I'm not concerned with volume sales, I can put more cash into the car to get the weight down and increase the strength. That's the idea anyway...

    In some instances, the aftermarket parts are going to be heavier than the stock parts simply because they are built with heavier steel and/or are boxed or tubular construction. The exceptions would be the K-member, front bumper support and possibly the lower front control arms. The aftermarket LCA's, panhard bar and torque arm will all be heavier.

  20. #40
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Naaman, if you are looking at 400 whp, the aftermarket 12 bolts will handle that with no sweat what so ever.

    My old chevelle still has it's stock original equipment 12 bolt in it, not a beefed aftermarket version. The only stronger parts inside of it are a moroso brute strength posi unit, and a set of Moser stock style 30 spline axles. These axles still use a c-clip too, but they are a non-taper axle which makes them stronger, unlike the factory axles that are tapered. I don't even run a support girdle cover on it, just a stock stamped steel cover.

    I built that rearend back in 1988 and haven't touched it since. I've drag raced the car many times a year since then, can't even count the passes on this car, and street driving the rest of the time. Always run a drag radial on it, weighs 4,108 lbs. with me in it, and runs 1.56-1.59 60 foot times lifting the left front wheel and runs 11.40's at 118 mph. I've had different engines in the car with the current one making 640 hp. That rearend never breaks a sweat. I'm currently working on a 502 for the car that will make well over 700HP and should put the car into the 10 second bracket. I'm not even worried about that rearend (though technically speaking, tech inspection likes to have c-clip eliminators on a car that fast) Hell it still has a stock driveshaft in it with stock U-joints. Never a problem. However I would like to upgrade that at some point just to be safe.

    Another example is my fathers old GTO, with a stock GM 12 bolt in it. His car was running mid 11's and yanks the wheels as well. Inside that rear is still a stock issue 1969 date coded Eaton posi unit, rebuilt with new clutch packs. The only aftermarket part in it are Strange c-clip eliminator 30 spline axles,,,,that's it. Stock stamped steel cover on that one too. He's raced this car since the late 80's as well with various motors.
    He currently runs a 571 cubed Pontiac motor in it that dyno'd at 760 ft lbs of torque and made over 700 ft lbs throughout the entire dyno pull. This engine will definitely test parts, it pulls like a locomotive.. I'm a little leery of a nearly stock 12 bolt rearend at this power level, however right now the car is just street driven (albeit spirited ) I'm going to upgrade this car though with a Strange 9" 35 spline Detroit locker etc....and an aftermarket driveshaft (that's still stock too)

    We are talking about 45+ year old factory 12 bolts taking this kind of abuse....the new castings are much stronger,,,,don't worry about it.

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