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help me figure this out

This is a discussion on help me figure this out within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I'm trying to plan out my rear. I have a 2000 Firehawk M6 already lowered with Strano's and AGX's and ...

  1. #1
    Chief of his tribe! LSCyaL8R's Avatar
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    help me figure this out

    I'm trying to plan out my rear. I have a 2000 Firehawk M6 already lowered with Strano's and AGX's and drag bags.

    I have a slight bearing noise in my rear that gets louder during right turns and quieter during left turns. I don't want to sink a DIME into the 10 bolt so a rear is on the menu for some time this year.

    I want a 9inch because they are quieter and can ultimately handle more power. I don't want to encounter problems with my ABS.... I like having ABS lol.

    So I started pricing rears and this is the first thing i've come up with. I'd like some experts to chime in and show me where I am going right or wrong and If I could do better. So here goes:

    Moser 9 inch rear end
    35 spline standard moser axles
    3 channel ABS option - I don't have TCS... only the TCS has 4 channel right?
    12mm oem wheel studs
    4.11 gear ratio
    nodular iron case
    no backbrace
    bare unpainted steel - perhaps there is a coating better than powdercoating??
    BMR anti roll bar brackets welded on
    3.5 inch PST driveshaft
    LCA reloc brackets with 4 mounting holes welded on
    Locker upgrade
    drain plug and fill plug
    stock width.

    $3,195 with free shipping

    1. is that a good price for that list?
    2. Should anything on there be changed? The car will be 99% street use and has no power adders bolt on or otherwise..... yet...
    3. Will i regret 4.11 gears? I've heard they shave up to .5 off the ET's but I do drive the car.... once in a while long distance.
    4. Would i be better off with Strange?
    5. How likely am I to have ABS problems. Seems like it's been hit or miss with everyone around here So i'm thinking installer error?
    6. If I buy something like this prebuilt is there any gear setup that I will still be on the hook for? I'm likely to have the Stock TA and PHB for a little while. I do want to move on up to an Adj TA and a Watts link when money permits.

    it's a long list but I want to do this once and do it right.

  2. #2
    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    If you have the 7.5 10 bolt then i agree don't get crazy other then fixing the axle bearing you have going out now, that's your noise most 80% certain without me driving the car myself...

    As for the 9".......... why, because everyone else does, or the wide array of parts.

    I'll tell you like i tell everyone... the 9" soaks up the most hp... it is not the strongest rear in the world, and unless you are planning on having 3 or more gear sets and changing them often for different track layouts.....get a 10 bolt 8.5 or 12 bolt.

    Now, having said that i do build rears and if the driver is aware of the conditions and knows that when wheel hop or tire shake is present to get out of the go pedal any rear will last...

    Years ago when i was younger i made the mistake of going to a 9" over the 8.75, now after been building rears over the years and seeing what and why and how this and that happened...
    I can better help others


    As for what gear and this and that.... there is no info on anything with your motor, hp what you plan to do....

    Details, the most important part of any answer are from the details you provide
    Last edited by Supershafts; 04-04-2010 at 04:45 PM.

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    I'll tell you like i tell everyone... the 9" soaks up the most hp... it is not the strongest rear in the world, and unless you are planning on having 3 or more gear sets and changing them often for different track layouts.....get a 10 bolt 8.5 or 12 bolt.
    Nobody makes a 8.5" 10 that bolts into a F-body. I wish they did. And unfortunately, several members here have found out that (possiblly because of the way the torque arm mounts to the pumpkin) that the 12 bolt starts whining after a few 11 second 1/4 mile runs.

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    Just for comparison -- Moser 12 bolt with 33 spline axles, 4 channel ABS, relocation brackets, and welded sway bar brackets for $2,800. I also went bare steel and painted mine with POR after etching it. The 3.5" PST driveshaft is a nice piece. I wasn't able to utilize my top hole on my tunnel mount though due to it being too close to the driveshaft for comfort.

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    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    Cutlass why would the tq arm cause a whine.
    A whine when? Accel? decel? Cruise..
    I can't see how the way a diff is held in place cause a bearing issue.

    I can see how housings can bend from poor link positions, but not a tq arm hurting bearings.

    Sounds like the pin load was a just a bit light

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    I'm not really sure. I've only heard speculation the the torque arm causes some housing distortion on hard launches like 5000 rpm clutch dumps on slicks. If you never do that the 12 bolt works great for the most part.

  7. #7
    Veteran Hi-Po's Avatar
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    I'm just going to throw out what I guess is my opinion, and many others. Not interested in any more debates on this certain topic. Taken straight from EPP's website, it has some solid, valid points.

    The 9-inch has an internal rear-pinion support that also supports the gear end of the pinion to limit gear deflection under high torque loads. This seems to be the major reason why the 9 inch doesn't start whining after high rpm clutch dumps, when the 12 bolt will pick up noise.The 9-inch locates its pinion gear lower on the ring gear to improve tooth contact, than the 12 bolt does.The 9-inch has a 0.125-inch larger ring-gear diameter and internal pinion support than the 12 bolt does. This is not much of a difference, but it is worth noting.
    Arguing the 12 bolt vs 9" strength and gear whine debate has become something I just leave up to the buyer to decide. Try and post the facts, and let the OP/buyer sift through them is what I find myself doing now as it seems the opinions never end.

    On to the original question though, I see you choose 35 spline axles and a locker. I assume you understand how the locker operates and its drawbacks. Manuals and lockers do not mate up together well at all and tend to be very finicky. Although there are not many reviews on the new WaveTrac, it has an amazing warranty (lifetime) and is a limited slip. If this is a true street car, LSD is a beautiful thing. Spools and a hard/short sidewall will have you struggling at low speeds and wearing your tires quickly. Lockers with a manual will sometimes have customers complaining that it causes the transmission sychros to grind and random locking/unlocking on deceleration. This is caused from the play between the teeth of the lock. See the video I posted in the Sticky up top of the Drivetrain Section. It will show you what I'm referring to.

    I don't have ABS on my 9" and honestly, I could care less. I really notice zero difference in normal/medium braking. I was worried just like you about ditching ABS, but I can honestly say I don't miss it or any problems that may come with keeping it. That's totally up to you, and just another opinion. My TA is a DD-able street car BTW.

    That price seems high for a plain jane Moser 9". Before you do anything drastic with your credit/debit card, do yourself a favor and call Erik at Midwest Performance Chassis. Beautiful fabricated rear end's that will probably match that 3000-3100 price tag.

    Powdercoating is nice, but not needed from a performance/durability standpoint IMO. I took my time and primered/painted mine and am pleased with it and thrilled I didn't pay the few hundred dollars for the alternative.

    The PST driveshafts are a great piece, I run one myself.

    Stay away from Tru Tracs, they have all kinds of problems currently after being bought out by Eaton. Some retailers are even halting the sales of them until Eaton can come up with a solution in their quality control.

    If you have the extra coin, I would seriously be considering the Wavetrac.
    Last edited by Hi-Po; 04-05-2010 at 10:44 PM. Reason: spelling
    370 CI - Twin 6766 Turbo - Jakes stage 5 4L80E - MWC 9" - Holley Dominator

    Build in progress...

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    1. is that a good price for that list?
    2. Should anything on there be changed? The car will be 99% street use and has no power adders bolt on or otherwise..... yet...Locker should be thought about as the direction you want to go with, and consider a LSD, such as the Wavetrac
    3. Will i regret 4.11 gears? I've heard they shave up to .5 off the ET's but I do drive the car.... once in a while long distance. Absolutely not. 4.11 gear is almost a perfect gear for stock tire height and a street car. I drove mine to and from work on the highway almost daily - ~35 miles each way
    4. Would i be better off with Strange?Strange makes a nice 12 bolt for sure. The S60 is a big boy and very strong. Lack of gear options would sway me personally and the fact the Wavetrac is not an option, at least currently. Look into MWC fabricated 9"
    5. How likely am I to have ABS problems. Seems like it's been hit or miss with everyone around here So I'm thinking installer error? Most of the problems that were associated with ABS issues are figured out and rarely give many people problems anymore. I cant speak from experience though, ditched the ABS.
    6. If I buy something like this prebuilt is there any gear setup that I will still be on the hook for? I'm likely to have the Stock TA and PHB for a little while. I do want to move on up to an Adj TA and a Watts link when money permits. MWC will include their own TA and Im almost positive that Erik is fabricating his own Watts Link for his 9". I still run the stock PHB with no issues - stock ride hieght.

    it's a long list but I want to do this once and do it right.
    Figured I would try and answer those for you in a separate post.

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    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    Hi-po..... you know what happens to a 9" without that NEEDED 3rd bearing......

    They blow up extremely quickly...

    That isn't there as a ADDED strength issue.... but it is there because the 2 bearings being so close together on the pinion, it is a design NEED for the 3rd bearing...

    Kinda like the new hubs on trucks...... Ever wonder why the new unit hubs suck compared to the old hubs.... cause unit hubs have the bearings to close together for the load.... just like the 9".....that needed bearing goes bad, and so does the rest of the rear...

    __________________________________________________ __________


    Anyone with a whinning 12 bolt check there pin preload ? ? ? or just ignore it....


    .

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    Veteran Hi-Po's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    Hi-po..... you know what happens to a 9" without that NEEDED 3rd bearing......

    They blow up extremely quickly...

    That isn't there as a ADDED strength issue.... but it is there because the 2 bearings being so close together on the pinion, it is a design NEED for the 3rd bearing...

    Kinda like the new hubs on trucks...... Ever wonder why the new unit hubs suck compared to the old hubs.... cause unit hubs have the bearings to close together for the load.... just like the 9".....that needed bearing goes bad, and so does the rest of the rear...

    __________________________________________________ __________


    Anyone with a whinning 12 bolt check there pin preload ? ? ? or just ignore it....


    .
    If you searched this particular issue with Fbody torque arm setups pertaining to gear whine, I think you would find many people who are on both sides of the fence. Some say the pattern/preload is fine and some say its completely screwed up.

    What you will see in the search is, almost all say their 12 bolt was stocker quiet, until going to the track. Usually just one time at that. Most will just deal with the gear noise and chalk it up to 'part of the game'. The 12 bolts torque arm mount is much closer to the pinion compared to a 9". I'll add my personal review of my last 12 bolt being way noiser with gear whine then my current 9". But my car see's lots of track time with 5000+ RPM launches also.

    I don't build rear ends for a living I have no idea what happens if you add or remove components or differences between newer vehicles. If you like a 12 bolt over a 9", its ok I was just giving the OP some information.

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    Anyone with a whinning 12 bolt check there pin preload ? ? ? or just ignore it....
    Do you mean during the initial assembly or after its starts whining? I check pinion bearing preload everytime I build a diff. Its part of the process. Anyone who doesn't is playing a guessing game and asking for trouble.

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    Hi Po, whats wrong with detriot true locker diffs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Thunder 42 View Post
    Hi Po, whats wrong with detriot true locker diffs?
    I don't think I said there was anything physically wrong with them[Locker]. They are really strong and very reliable. Just mentioned that paired up with a 6 speed/manual transmission they can be annoying in a street car.

    If you were referring to the Detroit Tru Trac's, that are now owned by Eaton... there have been too many failures to call them reliable right now. Seems the older units are still lasting but the newer ones are not holding up well at all. Mine included.

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    Rockin the Ruckus! 02Sweet's Avatar
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    I know that this is a little off subject but why not fit a 8.8 rear in the car for the money. Assuming you have a good enough welder to do so

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Sweet View Post
    I know that this is a little off subject but why not fit a 8.8 rear in the car for the money. Assuming you have a good enough welder to do so
    If your good at fabricating, you could probably make it work for less money. But if you don't possess those skills, after paying someone to do it your going to be at or over the cost of a 12 bolt or 9" I bet.

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    Rockin the Ruckus! 02Sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    If your good at fabricating, you could probably make it work for less money. But if you don't possess those skills, after paying someone to do it your going to be at or over the cost of a 12 bolt or 9" I bet.
    That is what I figured. I have been doing a lot of research on the 8,8 rear and they are able to be found cheap. From what I have read so far I think with enough brain power and skills it can be done for cheap

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    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    If you searched this particular issue with Fbody torque arm setups pertaining to gear whine, I think you would find many people who are on both sides of the fence. Some say the pattern/preload is fine and some say its completely screwed up.

    What you will see in the search is, almost all say their 12 bolt was stocker quiet, until going to the track. Usually just one time at that. Most will just deal with the gear noise and chalk it up to 'part of the game'. The 12 bolts torque arm mount is much closer to the pinion compared to a 9". I'll add my personal review of my last 12 bolt being way noiser with gear whine then my current 9". But my car see's lots of track time with 5000+ RPM launches also.

    I don't build rear ends for a living I have no idea what happens if you add or remove components or differences between newer vehicles. If you like a 12 bolt over a 9", its ok I was just giving the OP some information.

    So then every single mopar should have the same problem since they hammer the pinion section of the housing when they launch...

    If what you were saying is right, then you will see a bearing failure from housing deflection issues, and even a unique wear pattern



    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    Do you mean during the initial assembly or after its starts whining? I check pinion bearing preload everytime I build a diff. Its part of the process. Anyone who doesn't is playing a guessing game and asking for trouble.

    Well if you have a rear and it's fine, you go to the track and hammer it....then it's whinning, wouldn't you be curious to see what the preload is now... What caused the new noise....

    Last time i seen such a event the pre load changed, i believe it was a 10b 8.5 and the cc was the issue...

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    Well if you have a rear and it's fine, you go to the track and hammer it....then it's whinning, wouldn't you be curious to see what the preload is now... What caused the new noise....

    Last time i seen such a event the pre load changed, i believe it was a 10b 8.5 and the cc was the issue...
    aah I see where you're going with this now. So do you think a solid spacer instead of a crush sleeve would be a helpful upgrade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Sweet View Post
    That is what I figured. I have been doing a lot of research on the 8,8 rear and they are able to be found cheap. From what I have read so far I think with enough brain power and skills it can be done for cheap
    I hate to say it, but you pay for what you get. If you can't afford the best and yours isn't broke, don't try fixing it with sub-par equipment.

    HiPo, yeap I got the Detriot Tru Trac, seems to be work great to me. "Annoying" if you refering to how it starts locking in parking lot tight turns and makes it harder to not stall out, I understand. You just have to adapt your driving style around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Thunder 42 View Post
    I hate to say it, but you pay for what you get. If you can't afford the best and yours isn't broke, don't try fixing it with sub-par equipment.

    HiPo, yeap I got the Detriot Tru Trac, seems to be work great to me. "Annoying" if you refering to how it starts locking in parking lot tight turns and makes it harder to not stall out, I understand. You just have to adapt your driving style around it.
    You must be referring to the Locker, as a Tru Trac is a completely different animal and does not lock/unlock. Its a LSD.

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