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Drivetrain Angles - Pinion, TQ Arm, Trans, Help

This is a discussion on Drivetrain Angles - Pinion, TQ Arm, Trans, Help within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Perfect....

  1. #21
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Perfect.

  2. #22
    Veteran Hi-Po's Avatar
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    Thanks alot guys

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    Senior Member bills98ta's Avatar
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    Sounds like 10* to me... Are you guys sure ?

  4. #24
    Veteran Hi-Po's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bills98ta View Post
    Sounds like 10* to me... Are you guys sure ?
    +4 - (-6) = -2

    Right? I think I did it right Good thing the car is still in the air!

  5. #25
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    +4 - (-6) = -2

    Right? I think I did it right Good thing the car is still in the air!
    Yep that's right. If the -6 is the pinion and the +4 is the shaft, then you have -2 pinion angle.


    The idea behind that is when the car is under power, the pinion travels up. In ideal conditions you want enough negative pinion angle so that when it travels up under power, you have zero angle. That way you transmit the most power to the rear wheels, the U-joints won't soak it up. Every car is a bit different in the amount of movement, and on a street car it's best to stay conservative (like -2 to -3) to keep u-joint wear to a minimum.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 09-04-2009 at 05:57 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Yep that's right. If the -6 is the pinion and the +4 is the shaft, then you have -2 pinion angle.


    The idea behind that is when the car is under power, the pinion travels up. In ideal conditions you want enough negative pinion angle so that when it travels up under power, you have zero angle. That way you transmit the most power to the rear wheels, the U-joints won't soak it up. Every car is a bit different in the amount of movement, and on a street car it's best to stay conservative (like -2 to -3) to keep u-joint wear to a minimum.
    All makes sense. The pinion was at -6*... I took the reading at the TQ Arm mount.... and the bottom of the pumpkin. The driveshaft was right at +4.... maybe 5. I will test it out tomorrow on the street a little and I will for sure be at the track next wednesday

  7. #27
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    All makes sense. The pinion was at -6*... I took the reading at the TQ Arm mount.... and the bottom of the pumpkin. The driveshaft was right at +4.... maybe 5. I will test it out tomorrow on the street a little and I will for sure be at the track next wednesday
    The only issue you "might" have is where you took the measurement for the pinion yoke. I've never trusted that the housings or torque arm mounts were exactly parallel with the yoke, even a degree will throw things off and make a difference.

    What I do to be sure, is unhook the driveshaft at the rear, and get a deepwell socket that fits into the yoke just as the U-joint would, making sure the yoke is rotated so the ears are up and down. Hold the socket in there while you stick the angle finder on it and take your measurement, that is right off the yoke so you know exactly what you have.

    You can then simply put the driveshaft and u-joint back onto the yoke, making sure it's seated and take a measurement from the shaft. Don't necessarily have to bolt it back on if you are sure the u-joint is seated all the way, so you can easily take it back off for another measurement after an adjustment. Sorry if that sounds confusing.

  8. #28
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    By the way,,,did you get a test drive in??? Just to make sure there are no unusual vibrations at cruise speed and what not.

  9. #29
    Veteran Hi-Po's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    By the way,,,did you get a test drive in??? Just to make sure there are no unusual vibrations at cruise speed and what not.
    I just took it out of the garage and up to the house. Will be going on a cruise today for sure. I was wondering if that spot was going to be slightly off. If it means anything, the Tq Arm bracket post was the exact same number.
    Last edited by Hi-Po; 09-05-2009 at 12:45 PM.

  10. #30
    Veteran Hi-Po's Avatar
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    Well, anything above 45 and its growling bad. When you put it in neutral and just coast it seems worse. Guess I need to get a different angle to the dangle.

  11. #31
    Member Rk ws6's Avatar
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    yeppp you currently have 10 degrees pinion angle

  12. #32
    Member Rk ws6's Avatar
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    im thinking that the drive shaft should measure anywhere from -3 to 0 and the difference between the torque arm mount should +.5 which is-2.5 degrees pinion angle.... this is where mines at and so far at 140mph no vibration ... lol

  13. #33
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    I also have a trans crossmember that I can adjust where the tq arm mounts. What I have right now is not right

  14. #34
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Well, you don't have 10 degrees pinion angle

    What you do have exactly is hard to pinpoint without being there. Have to make sure the car is perfectly level and the suspension loaded to get an accurate measurement, I'm sure you already knew that.

    Every car is a bit different as in what it likes. With all those aftermarket control arms, torque arm etc....it's going to transmit more noise throughout the car, that's just something that has to be lived with when you go that route.
    I say that because you describe a growling noise??? Can you go into more detail??

  15. #35
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rk ws6 View Post
    im thinking that the drive shaft should measure anywhere from -3 to 0 and the difference between the torque arm mount should +.5 which is-2.5 degrees pinion angle.... this is where mines at and so far at 140mph no vibration ... lol
    The driveshaft travels in an upward angle toward the transmission,,,that is called positive angle,,,,you are mentioning yours as a negative.

    Negative angle is starting high at the rear of the car and going down torward the front of the car. As in the rearend pinion. It should be pointing slightly downward,,,,,that is called negative pinion angle.

    Also,,,you can't for instance take a positive number 4 and a negative number of 3, add the two together and come up with 7. That's not how math works. They cancel each other, and the remainder is the angle you have. In this case,,,,,+1

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rk ws6 View Post
    yeppp you currently have 10 degrees pinion angle
    Dont know where you pulled that one from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Well, you don't have 10 degrees pinion angle

    What you do have exactly is hard to pinpoint without being there. Have to make sure the car is perfectly level and the suspension loaded to get an accurate measurement, I'm sure you already knew that.

    Every car is a bit different as in what it likes. With all those aftermarket control arms, torque arm etc....it's going to transmit more noise throughout the car, that's just something that has to be lived with when you go that route.
    I say that because you describe a growling noise??? Can you go into more detail??
    Car was almost perfectly level. Next time I will actually take a level with me. I didnt have any wieght in the car though, I read somewhere you want weight IN CAR to act as though your sitting there. Any truth to that?

    The noise sounds bad, If its not going to do any damage/hurt anything then I can surely live with it. But it seems way excessive. Sounds like.... well gears. Talking to me.

  17. #37
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    Dont know where you pulled that one from.


    Car was almost perfectly level. Next time I will actually take a level with me. I didnt have any wieght in the car though, I read somewhere you want weight IN CAR to act as though your sitting there. Any truth to that?

    The noise sounds bad, If its not going to do any damage/hurt anything then I can surely live with it. But it seems way excessive. Sounds like.... well gears. Talking to me.
    Ya there is some truth to sitting in the car, I've gone as far as setting bumbells in the driver side floor to simulate me in there. Even my front end alignment guy would have me sit in the car as it changed the settings.
    Probably not so much when it comes to pinion angle but I'm a stickler for details like that.

    As far as the noise, it sounds like gears??? Isn't that a new rearend you just put in there??? I know it sounds like you've got that thing mounted in there pretty solid with aftermarket arms and poly mounts etc...
    If this gets to be a problem we could go a step further and check the front half of the driveshaft. I remember you saying you have an aftermarket trans crossmember. Probably a poly mount on there as well???
    If the angle of the transmission has changed with any of these aftermarket parts it could have an affect. For a perfect setup you want the output shaft of the transmission and the driveshaft to have the same (yet opposite) angle as the rear pinion.
    You can either stick the angle finder on the engine balancer (using the crankshaft centerline is identical to the output shaft of the tranny) Or,,,,you can take the driveshaft out and stick it on the output shaft of the tranny if it sticks out far enough.
    Then measure the driveshaft and see what kind of angle you come up with. You want the rearend to be nearly the same or very close. To adjust the front you will have to shim the trans up or down.

    But it still sounds to me like a noisy rearend that's mounted pretty solid to the car,,,and transmitting some noise. Because if the driveshaft were out that bad,,,it's more likely to cause vibrations to the point of making the rearview mirror blurry in severe cases.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 09-07-2009 at 01:14 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Ya there is some truth to sitting in the car, I've gone as far as setting bumbells in the driver side floor to simulate me in there. Even my front end alignment guy would have me sit in the car as it changed the settings.
    Probably not so much when it comes to pinion angle but I'm a stickler for details like that.

    As far as the noise, it sounds like gears??? Isn't that a new rearend you just put in there??? I know it sounds like you've got that thing mounted in there pretty solid with aftermarket arms and poly mounts etc...
    If this gets to be a problem we could go a step further and check the front half of the driveshaft. I remember you saying you have an aftermarket trans crossmember. Probably a poly mount on there as well???
    If the angle of the transmission has changed with any of these aftermarket parts it could have an affect. For a perfect setup you want the output shaft of the transmission and the driveshaft to have the same (yet opposite) angle as the rear pinion.
    You can either stick the angle finder on the engine balancer (using the crankshaft centerline is identical to the output shaft of the tranny) Or,,,,you can take the driveshaft out and stick it on the output shaft of the tranny if it sticks out far enough.
    Then measure the driveshaft and see what kind of angle you come up with. You want the rearend to be nearly the same or very close. To adjust the front you will have to shim the trans up or down.

    But it still sounds to me like a noisy rearend that's mounted pretty solid to the car,,,and transmitting some noise. Because if the driveshaft were out that bad,,,it's more likely to cause vibrations to the point of making the rearview mirror blurry in severe cases.
    Yes, the rear is held in place with BMR boxed LCA's with poly bushing, BMR TA with poly bushing... at both ends of the TQ arm. The rear end (9") has been almost dead silent even after 10 or so 1320 pass's. This noise happened right after I set this up. I guess Ill jack this TA back up, place at least a hundred pounds on the floor and measure everything again. This time, I will start at the balancer, then DS, then rear. The driveshaft should be perfect, hell its 420 dollars worth of driveshaft

    For future reference, is it possible to wack the angles so far off to screw the rear end up? The car is already up in the air, going to try this again.

  19. #39
    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    you have a torque arm relocation right ?

  20. #40
    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    i am a torque arm noob..but arent the torque arms adjustable themselves..but arent the relocation bracket adjustable too..as in where you can mount them on the vertical plane ? maybe something with where it is mounted on the relocation brackets

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