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4.30s in A4

This is a discussion on 4.30s in A4 within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I've come across a Moser 12 bolt out of 2002 TA. Car had low miles, guy stripped everything aftermarket to ...

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    4.30s in A4

    I've come across a Moser 12 bolt out of 2002 TA. Car had low miles, guy stripped everything aftermarket to get more resale value out of it. However, it was a 6 speed car and there lies 4.30s in the pumpkin. Car had traction control, as does my Z.

    So I'm thinking it should be an exact fit, but I guess we'll see on Saturday when my buddy and I do the install. With it coming out of a M6, I may have to coin up for a DS, and may have issues with the TA, but hopefully thats it. Anyways, I've opted to go with an LQ4/LQ9 shortblock, as my plans are for a TRex cam, and a 150 wet shot of juice. Haven't thought about heads or intake yet, but I'm opting to stick with the LS6 for now.

    I guess that my question is, with a general idea of the set-up above mentioned, with 4.30 gears and the cam stated above, would a 4400 stall be ideal? Am I looking at too much? I know the TRex is more of a peak HP cam, and the PTV clearance is tight to say the least, but I can work around that. I'm trying to acheive around 600 to the brakes, and I beleive this to be the easiest/cost-effective set-up. My only questions are the gears and converter. Trans won't take much abuse, but it IS a fresh rebuild, and its a strict track-only car, so if it blows, it blows, no biggie
    Last edited by MrMasterCraft; 11-15-2010 at 09:22 AM.

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    well your set up seems odd to me..no offense of course...have you really picked out your set up with everything working together? the 4.30s arent a spray kind of gear..whenever doing F/I or spray..you want higher gearing..in the 3.xx or 2.xx...on top of that you want a lower stall than a n/a you will be looking at a 3000-3600 ..on top of that..you are advised to use a special heavy duty converter for spray and F/I


    granted you are running a 150 shot..so it isnt much..but i am sure you will step it up in the near future and start running in the 200-300 range ..if so..look into a nitrous cam and not that t-rex

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    well your set up seems odd to me..no offense of course...have you really picked out your set up with everything working together? the 4.30s arent a spray kind of gear..whenever doing F/I or spray..you want higher gearing..in the 3.xx or 2.xx...on top of that you want a lower stall than a n/a you will be looking at a 3000-3600 ..on top of that..you are advised to use a special heavy duty converter for spray and F/I


    granted you are running a 150 shot..so it isnt much..but i am sure you will step it up in the near future and start running in the 200-300 range ..if so..look into a nitrous cam and not that t-rex

    Well 4.30s is what is in it at the present moment. I know I've seen guys on tech putting down 600 to the brakes with the exact setup, and all things considered, thats right around $2500 motor-wise. Which seems damn good to me. Again, not factoring in a converter, or building a trans for it, or the rear.

    I agree with selecting a more nitrous-based cam, however, stock rings won't handle anymore than 150, from what I've heard before the heat starts to take a tear on 'em, and fast. My buddy ran the Comp .566/.568 with a Zex 125 kit, full exhaust, 3.73 (Moser), lid, and 3200 stall, and went 7.0s on 26" or 28" slicks (can't remember, because he ran on both). He sold the car, guy bought SFCs and a different TA, and went 6.80s. Yet still to me, the .566/.568 CC is a babycam for these engines, and he was still running the factory EGR LS1 intake. Great daily driver, and better than a LS6 cam, but not really a nitrous cam either.

    The TRex was orginally designed for stock heads, and guys weren't gaining much with aftermarket variations. Upon visiting TRs website, the present TRex cam that they offer, is the second version, not even showing the orginal designed application.

    I'm tossed for a loop. The sound of a baaaaad cam is cool, but I could care less really. Car will not be daily driven. Just saw big numbers out of using factory unported heads, LS6 "factory intake" (cheap), and your typical 150 shot. I've got all the supporting mods, the only thing I need to buy yet would be the converter and a gear change. To me, it sounds like the perfect plan for a cheap cheap budget build. Of course, nothing goes as planned, I WILL measure PTV clearance and if I've gotta flycut, so be it, motor will be on the stand anyways. I WOULD definately like to hear other combinations with the same acheivable numbers, but I don't wana be "that guy" asking a million different questions. Sure, I'd like the answers, but I try to use the search button as much as possible, and this seems to be the best results I could find

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMasterCraft View Post
    Well 4.30s is what is in it at the present moment. I know I've seen guys on tech putting down 600 to the brakes with the exact setup, and all things considered, thats right around $2500 motor-wise. Which seems damn good to me. Again, not factoring in a converter, or building a trans for it, or the rear.

    I agree with selecting a more nitrous-based cam, however, stock rings won't handle anymore than 150, from what I've heard before the heat starts to take a tear on 'em, and fast. My buddy ran the Comp .566/.568 with a Zex 125 kit, full exhaust, 3.73 (Moser), lid, and 3200 stall, and went 7.0s on 26" or 28" slicks (can't remember, because he ran on both). He sold the car, guy bought SFCs and a different TA, and went 6.80s. Yet still to me, the .566/.568 CC is a babycam for these engines, and he was still running the factory EGR LS1 intake. Great daily driver, and better than a LS6 cam, but not really a nitrous cam either.

    The TRex was orginally designed for stock heads, and guys weren't gaining much with aftermarket variations. Upon visiting TRs website, the present TRex cam that they offer, is the second version, not even showing the orginal designed application.

    I'm tossed for a loop. The sound of a baaaaad cam is cool, but I could care less really. Car will not be daily driven. Just saw big numbers out of using factory unported heads, LS6 "factory intake" (cheap), and your typical 150 shot. I've got all the supporting mods, the only thing I need to buy yet would be the converter and a gear change. To me, it sounds like the perfect plan for a cheap cheap budget build. Of course, nothing goes as planned, I WILL measure PTV clearance and if I've gotta flycut, so be it, motor will be on the stand anyways. I WOULD definately like to hear other combinations with the same acheivable numbers, but I don't wana be "that guy" asking a million different questions. Sure, I'd like the answers, but I try to use the search button as much as possible, and this seems to be the best results I could find

    chasing numbers will impress only online warriors ...numbers can be manipulated..times cant. It seems like you are taking what combos people ran f/i and tried to up everything..use more stall ..shorter gears and a huge n/a cam ...remember with spray f/i ...you want to stay in the power as long as possible..you dont want to be flashing way up to 4600 to get 2k of usable rpm (spraying)..you want higher gears to use as much rpm as you can get to spray ..that and having that low of gear like the 4.30 and high stall will make traction just about impossible ...4.10s are tough..add a nasty 150 shot out the gate and flashing to 4600 = shitty times for most
    as you know..F/I is a different beast..your norms and guidelines are nearly completely different

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    chasing numbers will impress only online warriors ...numbers can be manipulated..times cant. It seems like you are taking what combos people ran f/i and tried to up everything..use more stall ..shorter gears and a huge n/a cam ...remember with spray f/i ...you want to stay in the power as long as possible..you dont want to be flashing way up to 4600 to get 2k of usable rpm (spraying)..you want higher gears to use as much rpm as you can get to spray ..that and having that low of gear like the 4.30 and high stall will make traction just about impossible ...4.10s are tough..add a nasty 150 shot out the gate and flashing to 4600 = shitty times for most
    as you know..F/I is a different beast..your norms and guidelines are nearly completely different
    If I had it my way, with a few more spendable dollars, I would opt for a Vigilante 4k, and go down to 3.73s. Which I very well may do, and taking a guess here.... perhaps may be a little easier on the trans doing so. Especially factoring in a trans cooler

    Yes, I am trying to up everything. Gears are what I got to work with tho. The stall does seem like a bitt much tho, you're probably right about that I'm sure now that I think about it. As for the "huge n/a cam", it works. I've seen 2 similar spec'd custom grind cams (lift/duration/not sure of LSA) run damn good locally on Zex kits. More than a few people are running the MS4s and Trexs on tech and spraying them every time down the track.

    When next winter comes, and I have a few more spendable dollars, I'll go with the 408 like I want, and build it to handle the minimum of 200 like I dream about. A custom-grind nitrous cam would be great, but would it run as good as a TRex or MS4, stock-equipped otherwise? Can't say yes or no, because I haven't been able to come up with any search results of anyone with that sort of bumpstick/nos setup only, without stroking. But with the combo I've got in mind (engine wise), it's hard to beleive I can get anymore out of it without spending thousands more

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    4.30's would be for a max. effort N/A build in an A4.
    Fun as hell though.

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    That combo isn't going to work at all.

    First, the TRex makes power way up, much higher than the LS6 intake will support. So either you're going to need a better intake or a milder cam. Second, 4.30 in a 4L60E makes little sense unless you're running a tall tire (28-29"+) and spinning to 7000rpm or more. Finally, 4400 stall may be a bit too loose for a 150 shot, unless it's a purpose built nitrous converter.

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    That combo isn't going to work at all.
    :

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    First, the TRex makes power way up, much higher than the LS6 intake will support. So either you're going to need a better intake or a milder cam.
    Unfortunately, I can't post links to sites that are not forum sponsors. But there are MULTIPLE, yes MULTIPLE, dynographs of fellow LS1 fbody cars making 450+hp to the brakes, with an LS6 intake. One even made 451@7k, and 408 on the torque side, with an LS1 intake. Thunder Racing made those exact numbers on a '01 T/A, with the LS6 intake. Not to be a dick, but if I was someone that didn't understand the internals of a V-style internal combustion engine, but was looking for advice, would you feel good giving somebody advice on something you don't seem to have done your homework on? This upsets me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Second, 4.30 in a 4L60E makes little sense unless you're running a tall tire (28-29"+)and spinning to 7000rpm or more.
    After doing the research, I disagree. Took some extensive digging, but I found what I was looking for. And again, the TRex powerband pushes to 7k RPMs. Advertised at 6800, some guys have peaked at 7k. I will ONLY be running a 28" tire on the new summit wheels, as this is a track-only build. (As I stated in my original post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Finally, 4400 stall may be a bit too loose for a 150 shot, unless it's a purpose built nitrous converter.
    Perhaps... I'll do it and get back to you with my combo that's "not going to work at all". See ya in a month

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMasterCraft View Post
    :


    Unfortunately, I can't post links to sites that are not forum sponsors. But there are MULTIPLE, yes MULTIPLE, dynographs of fellow LS1 fbody cars making 450+hp to the brakes, with an LS6 intake. One even made 451@7k, and 408 on the torque side, with an LS1 intake. Thunder Racing made those exact numbers on a '01 T/A, with the LS6 intake. Not to be a dick, but if I was someone that didn't understand the internals of a V-style internal combustion engine, but was looking for advice, would you feel good giving somebody advice on something you don't seem to have done your homework on? This upsets me...


    After doing the research, I disagree. Took some extensive digging, but I found what I was looking for. And again, the TRex powerband pushes to 7k RPMs. Advertised at 6800, some guys have peaked at 7k. I will ONLY be running a 28" tire on the new summit wheels, as this is a track-only build. (As I stated in my original post)


    Perhaps... I'll do it and get back to you with my combo that's "not going to work at all". See ya in a month
    That TRex will want to peak around 7000rpm in a 6.0, but in most LSx applications it's intake limited. A FAST will put it around 6800-6900, and the LS6 down to 6400, period, end of story. The LS6 intake cannot, never has, and never will allow power up past 6500rpm. If you mismatch a cam and intake powerband, the combo will not work to it's full potential.

    Don't think I know? On an MS4 my peak went from 6400 with an LS6 to 6900 with a FAST, just like every other decent sized cam in a 346 does.

    450rwhp with an LS1 intake on stock cubes? You can post links as long they're not selling anything. And if they are selling something, just post up the info without the link...

    But go ahead. Put that TRex in with an LS6 intake, 4400rpm stall, 4.30 geared, and spray it. Unless it goes low 10s, don't bother posting again.
    Last edited by Marc 85Z28; 11-18-2010 at 03:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    That TRex will want to peak around 7000rpm in a 6.0, but in most LSx applications it's intake limited. A FAST will put it around 6800-6900, and the LS6 down to 6400, period, end of story. The LS6 intake cannot, never has, and never will allow power up past 6500rpm. If you mismatch a cam and intake powerband, the combo will not work to it's full potential.

    Don't think I know? On an MS4 my peak went from 6400 with an LS6 to 6900 with a FAST, just like every other decent sized cam in a 346 does.

    450rwhp with an LS1 intake on stock cubes? You can post links as long they're not selling anything. And if they are selling something, just post up the info without the link...
    my thoughts exactly

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    But go ahead. Put that TRex in with an LS6 intake, 4400rpm stall, 4.30 geared, and spray it. Unless it goes low 10s, don't bother posting again.

    Yes sir

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f5/45...x-kooks-60645/

    http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamo...p-408rwtq.html

    This second link, guy acheived very little by upgrading to the lsx intake and injectors, while tuning it. BUT, I'm SURE it's improving more within the curve, other than what peak numbers show.

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    ^ so you post threads about a corvette and a f body..both of which are m6s..and all are only dyno numbers...you are chasing dyno numbers..and you will be disappointed with your loose stall and low gearing

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    ^ so you post threads about a corvette and a f body..both of which are m6s..and all are only dyno numbers...you are chasing dyno numbers..and you will be disappointed with your loose stall and low gearing
    I agree.

    Why would someone putting together a track only car give a rats ass about dyno numbers? Your research should have been all about track times not dyno numbers. People seemed to get so obsessed over dyno numbers it's crazy. I've never seen anyone win a race with a dyno sheet.

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Seems like nobody has any other real technical in-depth advice other than to criticize my general setup, of which nothing is set in stone yet... that's not why I'm a member. I was looking for something more along the lines of "Here's my setup..." or perhaps "I've seen guys run xxx with xxx..."

    So again, show me something, humor me, instead of criticizing me, I mean damn

    Thunder Racing went low 10s with their "cam-only" 01 pewter T/A. Can you blame me for trying to put something together similar
    Last edited by MrMasterCraft; 11-19-2010 at 02:59 PM.

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMasterCraft View Post
    So again, show me something, humor me, instead of criticizing me, I mean damn

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMasterCraft View Post
    well you need to tell us what you really want...do you want xx.xx times or do you want xxx power..because we can get you a set up that runs 10s and doesnt need huge numbers..or do the numbers thing..

    i hope you know while you sit there and act smug asking us to help you..we have..we have told you several pointers and rules of thumb..suggested ranges and intakes..and all you do is dismiss them and post links about some guy getting xx.xx or some rare xxx out of a 346ci.
    Last edited by shady milkman; 11-20-2010 at 11:58 AM.

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    i like where your set up is going ..if it wasnt for the nitrous....your stall and gearing and cam is a great start for a n/a track beast...personally i would throw a lsx 102 on there and a really good set of heads..afr or tf ...and a custom grind cam. that is the best way to go about it...you may not make 490 or whatever number you want..but you will be in the 10s i am positive. Along with that..looking into cutting weight as much as possible. light weight K. battery relocation..nice welds rims and a great rear and you will be able to cut ridiculous times.

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    Senior Member MrMasterCraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    i hope you know while you sit there and act smug asking us to help you..we have..we have told you several pointers and rules of thumb..suggested ranges and intakes..and all you do is dismiss them and post links about some guy getting xx.xx or some rare xxx out of a 346ci.
    The only reason why I'm leaning towards the TRex, is because of the simple fact that there's a handful of guys that have made the 450RWHP mark on 853 heads and both LS1 and 6 intakes.

    That being said, TR ran low 10s with their "cam-only TA". The flipside (which I never really thought about before), was that it was THEIR car. And if they can build the entire suspension, front to back, and market it as a "cam-only low 10s" car, well... guess that's what they did.

    Soooo...... time to start thinking outside the box. I beleive 317s are the 6.0 heads correct? If so, I duno if they're the same on both the LQ9 or LQ4? In any event, I haven't even checked for compression differences between running those, the 5.7 heads, or the 5.3s, which I'm sure would have to be done sooner rather than later, before parts get ordered. This is another thing I would need advice on.

    I'm thinking the 4400 stall is a little overkill, and I really am not too sure now, if I want to be spinning a stock bottom end to 7k RPMs all season long In all track runs that I've seen, most guys running the TRex in 346 form, are shifting between 6600-6800. And like was posted before, with an LSX 90/90 intake and throttle body, it should be able to make power all the way TO 7k rpms. But again, I'm not trying to spend $1k on an intake throttle body.

    In the end, I want to be able to propel the car to low 10s or even sneak into a 9.99 and try to stay under $3k with an engine build. Not including tune, TQ/trans, rear, or suspension, as that will come in the spring. Now that YOU Mr. Milkman, have decided to offer your help, hopefully I can start getting all this together. I beleive the 6.0 is a better base to start the build-up, rather than a 346, and I found a guy locally selling one for $1kobo, not including the truck intake (which wont fit under the hood anyways, not to mention, allow the breathing room that I need in my desired RPM range). I'd like to spray a minimum off 100, and working up to no more than 150 (until I go 408 which wont be for another 2 years or more)

    Soooooo... LQ4/LQ9, 3600/3800-6500/6800 RPM cam, 4k stall?, 4.30s for now, 317 heads or what else?, staying with a cheap intake, and of course a juice kit. I guess that's my rough draft if you will. Would like to be able to acheive 420+ at the wheels, so maybe an MS3 cam would better fit? Or G5X3? Hell, I dunno, what do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMasterCraft View Post

    Soooo...... time to start thinking outside the box. I beleive 317s are the 6.0 heads correct? If so, I duno if they're the same on both the LQ9 or LQ4? In any event, I haven't even checked for compression differences between running those, the 5.7 heads, or the 5.3s, which I'm sure would have to be done sooner rather than later, before parts get ordered. This is another thing I would need advice on.

    I'm thinking the 4400 stall is a little overkill, and I really am not too sure now, if I want to be spinning a stock bottom end to 7k RPMs all season long In all track runs that I've seen, most guys running the TRex in 346 form, are shifting between 6600-6800. And like was posted before, with an LSX 90/90 intake and throttle body, it should be able to make power all the way TO 7k rpms. But again, I'm not trying to spend $1k on an intake throttle body.

    In the end, I want to be able to propel the car to low 10s or even sneak into a 9.99 and try to stay under $3k with an engine build. Not including tune, TQ/trans, rear, or suspension, as that will come in the spring. Now that YOU Mr. Milkman, have decided to offer your help, hopefully I can start getting all this together. I beleive the 6.0 is a better base to start the build-up, rather than a 346, and I found a guy locally selling one for $1kobo, not including the truck intake (which wont fit under the hood anyways, not to mention, allow the breathing room that I need in my desired RPM range). I'd like to spray a minimum off 100, and working up to no more than 150 (until I go 408 which wont be for another 2 years or more)

    Soooooo... LQ4/LQ9, 3600/3800-6500/6800 RPM cam, 4k stall?, 4.30s for now, 317 heads or what else?, staying with a cheap intake, and of course a juice kit. I guess that's my rough draft if you will. Would like to be able to acheive 420+ at the wheels, so maybe an MS3 cam would better fit? Or G5X3? Hell, I dunno, what do you think?
    well i will agree 100% the 6 liter platform is better to work of of..gotta love the 4" bores ..i am no spray expert..so i cant guarantee anything in those terms..but i do know the 317s have a larger CC and is widely used for F/I ... it is common for those 317s to be milled to drop the CC for n/a builds..your goal of low 10s or 9s for under 3k is tough..mind you curtis and many others are running 408s built and are in the 10s ..takes a shit load of work. i would stay off the shelf in terms of cams...this is why....most off the shelp cams are designed for specific set ups....as yours will be a more extreme set up..a cam will/should be tailored for a low gear like yours and such a high stall ... your heads and intake will also play a huge roll. So id call up comp or patrick G and let them know your set ups and goals. If going with the 4" bore look into the ls3 heads etc...get yourself into a ls3 top end and it will be very beneficial

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