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are 4.11s worth it verses 3.73s M6

This is a discussion on are 4.11s worth it verses 3.73s M6 within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Does the AL cover stick way out from the stock cover or something?...

  1. #41
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    Does the AL cover stick way out from the stock cover or something?
    It's on jackstands.

  2. #42
    Member werewolf's Avatar
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    it looks to be about half inch thick with the bearing brace bolts

  3. #43
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Red
    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    I had clearance with my 9", stock sway bar and aftermarket on-car adjustable pan hard bar. I would think the 9" pumpkin is much larger than the 12-bolt housing, even with the AL aftermarket cover. I will say that my sway bar comes extremely close to the housing though. I've had it installed for several years though without issue. I'd think an aftermarket sway bar with the correct installation hardware should offer more clearance.

  4. #44
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I run the aluminum bearing cap support cover on my wifes 12 bolt with the stock sway bar, stock panhard bar, stock ride height etc...

    No clearance issues, fits perfectly.

  5. #45
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    Navy Blue Metallic
    98 T/A w/a little mods...

    If the 12 bolt & and Ford 8.8 are similar in size then you'll clear no issues. Mine clears my 8.8 even with a Moser rear cover which sticks out almost 1.5" more than the stock covers do.

  6. #46
    Member werewolf's Avatar
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    cool that makes me feel better now I need time so I can get this finished. loving the overtime right now but crap.

  7. #47
    Member werewolf's Avatar
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    well I got the axle and torque arm installed last night and what a pain in the rearend. So I am taking it relatively easy to break her in right. I did do Moser's recommended break in but the gears are still kind of loud on deceleration. Hope this is just them breaking in and not a piss poor set up by the Moser techs. I will say the brackets Moser installs have horrible sizing. I had to shave my panhard bar bushing down to fit and add shimming to both control arms as the gap there was roughly 1/8 to just shy of 1/4 inch. The welds were great so I have no strength fears but wish they measured a bit better. I still need to go back and rework the brake bracket as I had to cut the support sides off but it works for now and I need to bend new brake lines as the factory ones don't follow the contours anywhere close and didn't want to bend too much as I think these are originals so probably set in their ways if you know what I mean.

    I do have one question Moser sent 3 quarts of oil but that didn't seem to reach the fill hole. How much oil does the 12 bolt hold?
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 10-17-2014 at 06:06 AM.

  8. #48
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    All that modding for a 12-bolt? I don't recall having to do any of that with the Moser 9". Isn't that supposed to be a drop-in/bolt-up replacement?

    FBJ - you have the same thing happen on yours?

  9. #49
    Member RONS98TA's Avatar
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    I never had any issues either when I bolted in my moser 12 bolt. I didn't do any cutting, shaving, or modifying of any kind. (Besides having to muscle the e-brake cables a bit) Somethings not right. I did buy mine over 10 years ago, but I really can't imagine that the quality control has gone down that bad.

  10. #50
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    All that modding for a 12-bolt? I don't recall having to do any of that with the Moser 9". Isn't that supposed to be a drop-in/bolt-up replacement?

    FBJ - you have the same thing happen on yours?
    Nope but I used the Strange setup. I've had Moser in the past though and I know why that may be happening.

    Moser makes all their own control arm and panhard brackets, which I thought was odd because the factory style brackets for the larger axle tube rearends are all stamped and available to buy. They are trying to save a few pennies I'm sure. But because of that you get into possible variances here and there where sometimes the control arms may not fit properly, and I think that's what he's seeing here. I've never seen that issue on their 9" stuff however.

    On the Strange rearends, they use factory stamped brackets that are modified to fit onto the larger axle tubes. So you get not only the factory appearing brackets just like originals, but the control arms fit like they should.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 10-17-2014 at 06:07 AM.

  11. #51
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RONS98TA View Post
    I never had any issues either when I bolted in my moser 12 bolt. I didn't do any cutting, shaving, or modifying of any kind. (Besides having to muscle the e-brake cables a bit) Somethings not right. I did buy mine over 10 years ago, but I really can't imagine that the quality control has gone down that bad.
    Well, I know the customer service has gone down within that time. About 12 years ago or more, the father that started the business passed away. Now it's his kids running it and have been for over a decade. I think they still make some decent stuff though but they lacked customer service when I had an issue years ago, and it was a quality issue then, but that's a long story.

  12. #52
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
    well I got the axle and torque arm installed last night and what a pain in the rearend. So I am taking it relatively easy to break her in right. I did do Moser's recommended break in but the gears are still kind of loud on deceleration. Hope this is just them breaking in and not a piss poor set up by the Moser techs. I will say the brackets Moser installs have horrible sizing. I had to shave my panhard bar bushing down to fit and add shimming to both control arms as the gap there was roughly 1/8 to just shy of 1/4 inch. The welds were great so I have no strength fears but wish they measured a bit better. I still need to go back and rework the brake bracket as I had to cut the support sides off but it works for now and I need to bend new brake lines as the factory ones don't follow the contours anywhere close and didn't want to bend too much as I think these are originals so probably set in their ways if you know what I mean.

    I do have one question Moser sent 3 quarts of oil but that didn't seem to reach the fill hole. How much oil does the 12 bolt hold?
    I have a feeling the gear noise you have on coast will probably stay there and be something you'll have to live with. I'm not sure what brand gear Moser is using nowadays but I'd guess probably Motive or something similar. Couple that with the fact that they don't practice the use of a pinion depth gauge and would rather set them up relying on gear marking compound and that's it. In other words, even if they use the depth and lash settings recommended by the gear manufacture, they will deviate from that and use the gear marking pattern as the final "say so" and that doesn't always work out perfectly. Frankly you are depending on your eyes to see how grease is mashing between the gears, so it's not a precise way to do it. Because of that you sometimes get a gear that might make noise on float or coast.

    Strange is also guilty of this and I've got on them about it before but it falls on deaf ears. I've had some of their stuff make noise too, only to find out after I check pinion depth it's off by .006-.010" compared to what the gear manufacture stamped right on the face of the pinion gear. Calling them I get the same explanation that Moser gives me, they rely more on the gear pattern they see with the marking compound. UGH!!! My current Strange rear makes an ever so slight amount of noise but not all that noticable. With windows down, or the radio playing, or even the AC on, I can't even hear it. One saving grace here is that Strange uses USGears in all their builds, which in my opinion is the best ring and pinion set out there made right here in the US (North Carolina I think) and they tend to setup much easier without too much fuss.

    I personally prefer to use the measuring tools to set them up and set the pinion depth and backlash according to what the gear manufacture stamps right on the pinion face, and I don't deviate from that a single .001". Only then will I use the marking compound just as a double check to see how the pattern looks. It's always been acceptable this way and the gears run quiet. If the pattern looks slightly off for what ever reason, I'll stick with the manufacture settings first and foremost and run with it. And I think that's where people run into trouble. They think the pattern could be improved even if just a hair, so they start jockying things around and deviate from the manufacture settings. What I find is that one pass with gear marking compound might not show a perfect pattern while the next pass you try looks good. It's very difficult to rotate the rear while keeping pressure on the ring gear, (as if it's trying to move the weight of the car) You can't rotate the assembly free wheel and get a good pattern, that's an improper way of doing it. You must attempt to hold the ring gear still with some pressure and then force the rotation with the pinion to get a good reading on the pattern. So it's simulating moving the car. Very few people do this that I'm aware of, so I don't trust other people saying the "pattern" looks good. You'll get two very different patterns when checking them with and without resistance at the ring gear.

    Anyway, that's enough rambling from me.

  13. #53
    Member werewolf's Avatar
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    well I assume mine has us gear also as they sent that sticker lol. yea I know completely accurate way to tell. I can live with it for now as this just means keep on the gas right? Is the three quarts the correct amount of gear oil for the 12 bolt? Thanks for the replys and help

  14. #54
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
    well I assume mine has us gear also as they sent that sticker lol. yea I know completely accurate way to tell. I can live with it for now as this just means keep on the gas right? Is the three quarts the correct amount of gear oil for the 12 bolt? Thanks for the replys and help
    Yeah, usually about 2 1/2 for a stocker. With these rears that have slightly larger axle tubes, and I assume you also have the aluminum support cover which holds about 1/2 quart more, then 3 should fill it up.

    You'll fill until it starts to trickle out of the fill hole. Even slightly below the fill hole (1/2") is fine.

  15. #55
    Member werewolf's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply. Didn't want to buy more oil lol. Now to get back under and fine tune my pinion angle. Have just a bit of vibration at speed.

    Next time I mention modding this car send someone to kick me in the junk so I get the pain and save the cash. I need to get my freshly installed exhaust tweaked slightly to clear my torque arm mount better now also. I am sure I will be happy once it is all sorted out but until I get the bugs worked out I have a headache.

  16. #56
    We'll be back... GatorSS's Avatar
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    "Worth it" or not is all relative to what you are really seeking. Regarding the mileage question, I don't know of anyone seeking great mileage who has chosen one of these cars. We buy 'em for the performance capability. From what you write, drag racing must be your primary perfomance preference. Sure, you will sacrifice MPG and highway performance, but those aren't what you seek. You want to beat the guy next to you off the line and be done with blowing his doors off in 10 or 12 seconds, right?

    For that is what the 4.11 gear is made; the 3.73 is for a different purpose.

  17. #57
    We'll be back... GatorSS's Avatar
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    I see I'm way late on my reply above... I only saw the first page of the thread. Anyway, that's a lot of work you had to do on your setup. I hope it breaks-in to your satisfaction. Nothing like having one go the wrong way.

  18. #58
    Member werewolf's Avatar
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    yea she is primarily my daily driver but I do like to have some fun with her. The mileage question was for those times I take a road trip and I am a cheapskate lol so I hoped to not kill the mileage.

  19. #59
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GatorSS View Post
    "Worth it" or not is all relative to what you are really seeking. Regarding the mileage question, I don't know of anyone seeking great mileage who has chosen one of these cars. We buy 'em for the performance capability.
    Umm,,,,I do

    If all I wanted were performance capabilities and didn't care about mileage, I'd just keep driving the classic cars and toss the 4th gen over the cliff...

    One of the big reasons my wife daily drives a 4th gen is because she can have her cake and eat it too. Performance and 30 mpg out of the same car I'll admit is pretty darn nice

  20. #60
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    I have to agree with FBJ. Comparing mpg of today's Muscle cars vs 70/60/50's there is a wide margin of difference in mpg. At best most classics average 6-12 mpg depending on the model while today's cars get 3-4x's that and have much high HP & TQ output per CI than those of the classic yrs.

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