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4.10's ARE IN'S

This is a discussion on 4.10's ARE IN'S within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by JaycenK It's not to much for a M6 but you are putting a lot of gear in ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaycenK View Post
    It's not to much for a M6 but you are putting a lot of gear in that thing. Street car or track car?
    It's my street car. '02 Camaro/LS1/T-56 swap car. Only mods now are SLP lid, K&N, cut lower box, Bellows, free mods, LT's/ORY, No muffler and tune. Future plans include a 100-shot. Will these gears be okay? And what will MPG be compared to 4.10's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    Way too much gear for an m6 unless your only goal is to waste more fuel in 6th.

    Think about it this way guys. there are 2 guys riding bicycles.

    Biker #1 Sumo wrestler. Huge, powerful, but cant pedal very fast.

    Biker #2 Bruce Lee. Skinny light but fast.

    NOW picture riding your bicycles. To make things simpler instead of a typical 21 speed think of a 2 speed. a Low gear, for comparison sake this is 3.42 (something you would use going down a hill). and the highest which is say a 4.30 gear (something you would use going up hill to make it easy).

    Imagine putting the sumo wrestler on the bike with the high gear from a stop. He cant pedal very fast but he is powerful. the extra torque from being in a high gear isnt being used because he cant pedal fast enough to take advantage of it. Get it?

    Put the sumo wrestler on the bike with the low gear from a stop and each revolution of his powerful legs will push the bike super fast.

    SO.. Think of what the ls1 motor is. A torque motor? or a hp motor ?
    I see what your saying. It makes a LOT of sense. But damn, i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. So many say it's not too much and then there are those who say it's overkill. So in otherwords your saying 4.30's is too much gear and I should just go with 4.10's.

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    If you are after quicker e.ts primarily and run a full drag suspension with a slick and really are trying to shave every hundredth off your 60 foot times then go 4.30s or 4.10s. IMO for a street car that is raced on the street and track occasionally it is too much gear. if you NEVER race anyone from a roll from 20 mph up then those gears will be fine.

    If anyone plays grand turismo buy a stock z28. Stick the race tranny in there and do the swap. you will see how the stock gear car pulls away from the steep geared car after the launch (if on street tires). If you add slicks to the rear you will see the steep geared car take the launch and get ahead but lose ground as they go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    I'm going to b honest here. I think 4.10s are the stupidest choice on the street. Our motors are torque motors. Meaning they are large in displacement which gives good torque, hp is just a calculation from that. In order to maximize the torque gears need to be long (numerically lower). Steeper gears are ok for cars with much more rpm capability. a 4.10 gear is for 7500 and beyond. it is just Stupid to have one in a f-body. To actualy say 6th is useable now with 4.10s is also the dumbest comment I've ever read. it was DESIGNED to work as it does with 3.42s. It is a fuel economy gear period. It was designed to be fuel efficient under light load and nothing else. Choosing gear ratios based on 6th gear cruising rpms is just downright retarded. Of course the rpms will be higher now with 4.10s but you've also just shortened each of the other 5 beyond any positive outcome.

    Look at The dodge vipers stock rear ratio. Vipers went slower when people started putting gears in them. Look at the c6 z06. wonder why the rear gearing went LOWER numerically? Because they have engineers that understand that torque needs gear. If you can't load a torquey engine you are going through the powerband without using its biggest asset. Ever wonder why higher gear ratios dyno lower?

    Gears are great if you rev 7500+ or if you have a stock motor and have the ultimate suspension and huge slick and just want a nasty 60' time and quick (quick NOT fast) e.t. A gear helps by making 1st gear so much shorter it will help slingshot out of the hole. For everyone else...
    In my opinion, almost everything you said here is wrong. LS1s are not torque monsters. Big blocks and 383 strokers are torque monsters. LS1s pull 2.0 to 2.2 60 foot times...thats not a torque monster.
    Vipers and Corvettes have lower numerical gears so that can post huge top speed number and give them that Super Car status and feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    In my opinion, almost everything you said here is wrong. LS1s are not torque monsters. Big blocks and 383 strokers are torque monsters. LS1s pull 2.0 to 2.2 60 foot times...thats not a torque monster.
    Vipers and Corvettes have lower numerical gears so that can post huge top speed number and give them that Super Car status and feel.
    I completely give up after reading that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    I completely give up after reading that.
    But I will say this. Look at how much hp the ls makes per litre. Then compare to a 600 cc sportbike motor. Think about how each goes about getting maximum horsepower. One just uses simple cubes. other uses every possible way to maximize its hp including titanium, vvt, dohc and super duper rpms.

    In other words, It's like asking Kirby Pucket to steal bases (sorry couldnt think of another lardass in baseball) But point is that the LS motor isnt maximized for hp at all. Look at what happens when you add ported heads, cams etc and help it breathe. try those mods on a 370z Nissan and you'll pick up 10 hp. The Ls is just a huge v-8 that makes torque. it 'likes' tall gearing and it is most effective with them.

    here's a vid of a c4 zr1. it has stock gears vs shorter geared c5
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzPPEK9Qf3M"]YouTube - C4 ZR1 vs C5[/ame]

    Keep in mind that the longer you stay in your power band the better. like the Nissan GTR which has 6 speeds and short tranny gearing to keep the rpms close to maximum acceleration (not peak torque or hp). The more you shift the more you lose.

    Now im just getting carried away its late I need to sleep.

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    ok last post.

    READ this everyone.

    http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?t=109922 start at 2nd post paragraph 6 to be Exact. enjoy its a cool read.
    Last edited by 5abivt; 10-06-2009 at 10:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    I'm going to b honest here. I think 4.10s are the stupidest choice on the street. Our motors are torque motors. Meaning they are large in displacement which gives good torque, hp is just a calculation from that. In order to maximize the torque gears need to be long (numerically lower). Steeper gears are ok for cars with much more rpm capability. a 4.10 gear is for 7500 and beyond. it is just Stupid to have one in a f-body. To actualy say 6th is useable now with 4.10s is also the dumbest comment I've ever read. it was DESIGNED to work as it does with 3.42s. It is a fuel economy gear period. It was designed to be fuel efficient under light load and nothing else. Choosing gear ratios based on 6th gear cruising rpms is just downright retarded. Of course the rpms will be higher now with 4.10s but you've also just shortened each of the other 5 beyond any positive outcome.

    Look at The dodge vipers stock rear ratio. Vipers went slower when people started putting gears in them. Look at the c6 z06. wonder why the rear gearing went LOWER numerically? Because they have engineers that understand that torque needs gear. If you can't load a torquey engine you are going through the powerband without using its biggest asset. Ever wonder why higher gear ratios dyno lower?

    Gears are great if you rev 7500+ or if you have a stock motor and have the ultimate suspension and huge slick and just want a nasty 60' time and quick (quick NOT fast) e.t. A gear helps by making 1st gear so much shorter it will help slingshot out of the hole. For everyone else...
    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    from GM " Gears were further reduced to Take full advantage of the broad torque curve the 7.0L ls7 engine provides"

    If they wanted to reduce first gear they would have changed the ratio of the individual gears ala c5 z06. With the c5 z06 they reduced the ratios of specific gears to help keep the ls6 within its powerband 'between' gears because the powerband was shifted higher in the rpm range.
    Ugh. This has hurt my head reading. If you want to believe having a STEEPER gear (which you have mis named many times) is worse... well thats fine. But dont fill everyones head with that information. The stock 346 LS1, is not a torque monster. If your comparing it to a Camry, then yes. But be real. When a LS1 has a full exhaust, heads and intake.. It obviously wants a larger camshaft, right? That larger camshaft is going to sacrifice some low end power for a larger gain of horsepower up top. Correct? Now, why in the heck would you want a 3.42 rear gear when you just lost power down low? You want a STEEPER gear to get you going, since you lost the low end grunt of a 'smaller' camshaft but down have bigger power up top. Are you saying a steeper gear hurts ET? The only way a steeper gear will hurt overall ET is if you run out of RPM. IE, if you have to shift into 5th gear. Thats easily countered by adding a taller tire then our stock 26's. Correct? It sounds like your confusing what two types of cars are going for. The Corvette has the gear it does from the factory, for the MPH they always claim. Top speed sells sports cars, always has. The first 60 feet of a 1/4 race is one of the most important pieces to a good ET. If you can shave .2 tenths of the 60' its very likely you will gain .3/.4 tenths at the big end... and MPH better.

    I dont think anyone is saying 6th gear has any use other then a great overdrive ratio.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    You're right I probably shouldn't have added my initial feelings in my first post but I'm just out to help people understand. I was happy when I first put 4.09s n my 93 vette 10 years ago. Until i raced a friends vette who I had beat previously and now barely lost to (at higher speed roll ons) with the addition of 4.09s it made me wonder. Off the line they do help. They are torque multipliers and they give a good amount more acceleration off the line and low speed starts. BUT do the math and see what happens when a 4.09 car starts in 3rd on a roll and a stock gear car would be in 2nd.

    4.10s 'feel' so much better I agree. Just realize they ARE accelerating you faster BUT you are now going much slower at the top of that gear. If you have street tires you run the risk of blowing off 1st gear and when you get to 2nd? you're just worse off now than a stock rear in 1st.

    Don't look at rwhp look at torque and rpms. If you are a stroker having short gears is the WORST mod you can do. The whole point of a stroker is to have Huge torque and you want steep gears to let the torque do the work.
    If you have a heads/cam and have moved the power up in the powerband and especially if you have gone aggressive and sacrificed low end torque for more top end power and added some 500 rpms to peak then short gearing will be beneficial.

    You're right. You don't 'have' to have higher numerical gears to to take advantage of 7500 rpms. you 'WANT' to Ask me how I know !

    My last 388 stroker I had in the vette was a torque monster. The builder had used a high duration high lsa cam which stupid enough gave a higher redline but also gave up top end peak power to give more torque across the range. I have all the calculations, races with friends and recorded datalogs that proved that when I switched to a 3.73 gear it made my car much faster. a 388 is still a large cube motor and all the torque was being wasted. My mph also went from 124 to 128 on street 19s.

    Dodge viper 465 lbs torque 6000 redline 3.07 rear axle ratio
    from dodges press release ' Ninety percent of the torque is available to the driver across a wide band -- the 1,500-5,600 rpm range' make sense?

    Acura Nsx 224 @5500 rpm 290 hp @ 7100 rpm 4.06 rear axle ratio
    Make any sense? The motor makes torque higher up and peak so high that it needs to rev fast to get up in rpms to 'maximize' the motors attributes.

    I wont go into motorbike stuff but I've had a gsxr 600, 750 and r1. Imagin what would happen if you put the steep gear of the 600 into the r1? Anyone know what its like to ride the 'torque' of a literbike flat out in 4th on the highway? remember what it's like and you'll know what i'm talking about
    Do you have any other proven information, saying that a 4.11/4.30 is useless unless you ' are a all out drag racer, have a slick, and trying to shave everything off the ET"? Its obvious you really think your right here, thats ok. The fact of a steeper gear NOT keeping you in your powerband is crazy. I honestly dont know where your pulling some of this from.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    Way too much gear for an m6 unless your only goal is to waste more fuel in 6th.

    Think about it this way guys. there are 2 guys riding bicycles.

    Biker #1 Sumo wrestler. Huge, powerful, but cant pedal very fast.

    Biker #2 Bruce Lee. Skinny light but fast.

    NOW picture riding your bicycles. To make things simpler instead of a typical 21 speed think of a 2 speed. a Low gear, for comparison sake this is 3.42 (something you would use going down a hill). and the highest which is say a 4.30 gear (something you would use going up hill to make it easy).

    Imagine putting the sumo wrestler on the bike with the high gear from a stop. He cant pedal very fast but he is powerful. the extra torque from being in a high gear isnt being used because he cant pedal fast enough to take advantage of it. Get it?

    Put the sumo wrestler on the bike with the low gear from a stop and each revolution of his powerful legs will push the bike super fast.

    SO.. Think of what the ls1 motor is. A torque motor? or a hp motor ?
    4.10 is NOT too much gear. Its perfect. The amount of MPG your going to lose is so minimal, it doesnt even get brought up anymore. Were talking a few hundred RPM (in a 6 speed). Thats nothing for the performance gain your getting. I hook just fine on the street with 4.11's, a tad over 400 RWHP and a good drag radial. Its MECHANICALLY accelerating you faster. Theres no way around it, thats what gearing is for. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    If you are after quicker e.ts primarily and run a full drag suspension with a slick and really are trying to shave every hundredth off your 60 foot times then go 4.30s or 4.10s. IMO for a street car that is raced on the street and track occasionally it is too much gear. if you NEVER race anyone from a roll from 20 mph up then those gears will be fine.

    If anyone plays grand turismo buy a stock z28. Stick the race tranny in there and do the swap. you will see how the stock gear car pulls away from the steep geared car after the launch (if on street tires). If you add slicks to the rear you will see the steep geared car take the launch and get ahead but lose ground as they go.
    Are we seriously comparing this real world topic to a video game? Come on. Im going to go on a limb here and say most (if not all) guys who end up getting a stronger rear (9", 12 bolt dana) are NOT running a non DR street tire. Why would you? Is your whole argument on steeper gearing, that you cant hook on the street? You have covered so many areas, and not stuck to any of them worth noting. A 4.30 is a great gear, but with a stock T56 gear ratio, and stock tire hieght... youll be crossing the line at 6800 or so. With my 4.11's, Im crossing just at 6450. Thats perfect, as I make peak power at 6200, and only lose 4 RWHP for the next 350 RPM's. Im not a special case, this is a well known fact. Crossing the line at a lower RPM, would not be taking full advantage of peak horsepower.

    Gearing has been around forever. There are cases where a steep gear is less then beneficial. Forced Induction guys are the exemption here. When boost hits, having that 4.11+ makes hooking anywhere a problem. Thats the only exemption I can think of. So far, I find very few things I can agree with you on here.
    Last edited by Hi-Po; 10-07-2009 at 05:47 PM.

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    Another advantage of 4:10s is the clutch will hold better also. As Hi-Po said, I lost almost nothing in terms of gas milaege. Less than 1 mpg. Anyone that steps in these threads and says "I'm going with 3:73s cause I wanna keep some milaege" is just misinformed. Only reason to go 3:73s is if your using nitrous that I'm aware of. Also lots of guys use 4:30s w/27' tires at the track and 4:56s w/28' tires. Same drive ratio but the bigger tire puts a bigger patch on the ground for more traction.

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    4:10s =: ~)

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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    Another advantage of 4:10s is the clutch will hold better also. As Hi-Po said, I lost almost nothing in terms of gas milaege. Less than 1 mpg. Anyone that steps in these threads and says "I'm going with 3:73s cause I wanna keep some milaege" is just misinformed. Only reason to go 3:73s is if your using nitrous that I'm aware of. Also lots of guys use 4:30s w/27' tires at the track and 4:56s w/28' tires. Same drive ratio but the bigger tire puts a bigger patch on the ground for more traction.
    I 2nd that. I put 4.10s in and lost less than 1mpg and the car is great on the highway even at 80+mph. I just took a 400mi trip and averaged close to 27mpg with my 410s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rc74racer View Post
    I 2nd that. I put 4.10s in and lost less than 1mpg and the car is great on the highway even at 80+mph. I just took a 400mi trip and averaged close to 27mpg with my 410s.
    Nice. That's the kind of MPG that proves 4.10s don't really hurt MPG, especially highway. By almost, I assume you mean over 26.5?

    Also, I know it's said somewhere, but what are people's trap RPM with 4.10s at the 1/4? Do you run out of RPM in 4th? I know it depends on other mods, but with a basically stock car and only bolt-ons like a lid, headers, ORY like my car, are you trapping much over 6,000 in 4th? Anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    Nice. That's the kind of MPG that proves 4.10s don't really hurt MPG, especially highway. By almost, I assume you mean over 26.5?

    Also, I know it's said somewhere, but what are people's trap RPM with 4.10s at the 1/4? Do you run out of RPM in 4th? I know it depends on other mods, but with a basically stock car and only bolt-ons like a lid, headers, ORY like my car, are you trapping much over 6,000 in 4th? Anyone?
    I'm at 6400 in 4Th crossing the line. That's on HP Tuner data logger, not the OEM Tach. Stock height tire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    I'm at 6400 in 4Th crossing the line. That's on HP Tuner data logger, not the OEM Tach. Stock height tire
    OIC. I'd need to put in better pushrods, mine are still stock, and have my rev limiter raised. I'll check your profile to see your mods.

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    I am thinking of getting 4:10 gears for my 02 ws6...

    So whats a good brand name gear to buy.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkramair View Post
    I am thinking of getting 4:10 gears for my 02 ws6...

    So whats a good brand name gear to buy.....
    Motive or Strange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    Nice. That's the kind of MPG that proves 4.10s don't really hurt MPG, especially highway. By almost, I assume you mean over 26.5?

    Also, I know it's said somewhere, but what are people's trap RPM with 4.10s at the 1/4? Do you run out of RPM in 4th? I know it depends on other mods, but with a basically stock car and only bolt-ons like a lid, headers, ORY like my car, are you trapping much over 6,000 in 4th? Anyone?
    I've been to the track once and did not need to hit 5th. I have a catback and a lid. I think you could have a complete bolt on car and be fine with 410s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    OIC. I'd need to put in better pushrods, mine are still stock, and have my rev limiter raised. I'll check your profile to see your mods.
    Is raising the rev limiter from 6200 to say 6700 a high risk with a stock LS1?

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