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10 bolt popping

This is a discussion on 10 bolt popping within the Drivetrain forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Oh ok and the 12 is 2% right...

  1. #21
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    firebird formula 99

    Oh ok and the 12 is 2% right

  2. #22
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    You can cure that HP loss by using the 12 bolt style 3rd member for the 9 inch. Which basically moves the pinion centerline. Of course all this lightweight and more efficient parts adds to the cost substantially.

  3. #23
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    Unless you're trying to squeeze every little bit out of your car because you're a competitive drag racer, I personally wouldn't worry about a 2, 3 or even 6% power loss. With just headers, exhaust and a lid my car put down 330rwhp/342rwtq on a Mustang DYNO. It would have put down even more on a DYNOJet. That was through a 9".

    Choose the rear end that fits your build and pocket book.

    Having that piece of mind that your rear end isn't going to explode is what was important for me.
    It's on jackstands.

  4. #24
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Some of us squeak power out of the most unusual places I'm always looking for that little extra.

  5. #25
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I chose piece of mind over having 3% more HP. I've seen plenty of 12 bolts break. I've rarely seen a 9" break. Not saying a 12 bolt isn't a great rear end at all or that it's not a great upgrade though. There are plenty cars with them running very low ET's.

    I can say with certainty that if I had a 12 bolt instead of a 9" and made 515rwhp instead of 500rwhp I wouldn't be able to tell the difference though

  6. #26
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I wouldn't hesitate to use one, built right they will survive 500 rwhp easily. That's about where I'm at in my chevelle (640 flywheel), and with a 4100 lbs. race weight cutting 1.5 60 foot times, that rear has been in there since the car was new without a hickup. I don't even think about it.

    I like the 9 inch too, solid foundation so long as you use an aftermarket 3rd member, I'm not too big on the stock 3rd members, I've broken plenty of those.

  7. #27
    Member JacobLS1's Avatar
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    1998 Z28

    I had a similar problem, turns out the lip where the axle goes into the diff actually broke.
    1998 Z28: Bolt-ons, Stage ? 4L60E. 250rwhp@6500Ft (R.I.P 5/1/2013)

    1998 Mystic Teal Trans Am: Bone stock. (In process)

  8. #28
    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    I chose piece of mind over having 3% more HP. I've seen plenty of 12 bolts break. I've rarely seen a 9" break.

    If that was the concern then the D-60 was the rear to get, when the 9" breaks it's worse than any other diff breaking....because they take everything in front of them out also

  9. #29
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    If that was the concern then the D-60 was the rear to get, when the 9" breaks it's worse than any other diff breaking....because they take everything in front of them out also
    I was comfortable getting the rear end that was both strong, and weighed less. Plus it's what my builder at the time recommended who is highly well known in the LS community. Not too worried about it breaking. I'm not launching my car on slicks at 6K+ and I have about 12K in suspension and drive-train mods. If I shear a pinion, I'll replace the center section with a Wave-Trac and higher gears since I'm supercharged now. I currently have 4.11's and it's hell on wheels.

  10. #30
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    If that was the concern then the D-60 was the rear to get, when the 9" breaks it's worse than any other diff breaking....because they take everything in front of them out also
    I hear ya on that. Every time I broke a 9" it was the pinion support (weak link in the stock 3rd members). The pinion would come out still attached to the driveshaft. On one occasion it actually took out the transmission with it.

  11. #31
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    Soooooo I should go with? Lol

  12. #32
    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I hear ya on that. Every time I broke a 9" it was the pinion support (weak link in the stock 3rd members). The pinion would come out still attached to the driveshaft. On one occasion it actually took out the transmission with it.
    Every time i see them break it's always the entire diff, shaft and trans. . . If the 3rd bearing has a problem the same thing happens even in the bigger aftermarket housings.

    I stay away from diffs that break anything else but themselves.

  13. #33
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    When you mention 3rd member, are you speaking of the center section of the rear? I have a PST 3.5" drive shaft rated for 1200HP and an aftermarket torque arm (BMR Trak Pak) which mounts to a cross-member that is welded into each sub-frame connecter. Nothing is tied into the tailshaft of the transmission. The Trak Pak is basically BMR's top of the line torque arm which is specifically used for drag racing applications mostly.

    So, in my instance, if the 3rd member was to break, the worse that would happen would be just that, the center section would implode.

    Am I correct in my thinking?

  14. #34
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    When you mention 3rd member, are you speaking of the center section of the rear? I have a PST 3.5" drive shaft rated for 1200HP and an aftermarket torque arm (BMR Trak Pak) which mounts to a cross-member that is welded into each sub-frame connecter. Nothing is tied into the tailshaft of the transmission. The Trak Pak is basically BMR's top of the line torque arm which is specifically used for drag racing applications mostly.

    So, in my instance, if the 3rd member was to break, the worse that would happen would be just that, the center section would implode.

    Am I correct in my thinking?
    Yes, I'm speaking of the center section, third member, pumpkin, or what ever you want to call it.

    What happens when I've broken mine (56 chevy with a 9 inch, no torque arm or anything connected to the trans but the driveshaft) Is the pinion support breaks off, and in one instance it has shoved the driveshaft forward which busted the tailshaft off the trans and ruined some internal parts. Very expensive repair. I had this happen to a buddies 4th gen with a 10 bolt as well but that was an odd instance I think. Other times I broke it does as you are thinking,,, simply just drops the pinion out of the case and pulls the driveshaft out of the trans, and generally ruining the driveshaft is the only other major foul up.

    I was running (at that time mid to late 80's) stock type ford 3rd members, even the "N" cases when I found them because back then things were cheap. Since they are costly and hard to find nowadays, I now run a Strange 3rd member which is cast much thicker, more webbing (and is heavier as a result) but I have yet to scatter that one. I'm sure it's possible though. I'm always a bit skeptical of those pinion supports. I love the design however, easiest rearend to set a gear up. It's that small extra pinion support inside the case where I've seen failures start to begin. As a matter of fact, I setup a new gear in my neighbors 67 stang last year and when I took it apart (it was working perfectly at the time), that little support area was cracking and actually fell into 3 small pieces when I disassembled it. So we went with a new Strange 3rd member. If I had one apart I'd throw up a picture of what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 04-03-2012 at 08:52 AM.

  15. #35
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones:2762528
    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    When you mention 3rd member, are you speaking of the center section of the rear? I have a PST 3.5" drive shaft rated for 1200HP and an aftermarket torque arm (BMR Trak Pak) which mounts to a cross-member that is welded into each sub-frame connecter. Nothing is tied into the tailshaft of the transmission. The Trak Pak is basically BMR's top of the line torque arm which is specifically used for drag racing applications mostly.

    So, in my instance, if the 3rd member was to break, the worse that would happen would be just that, the center section would implode.

    Am I correct in my thinking?
    Yes, I'm speaking of the center section, third member, pumpkin, or what ever you want to call it.

    What happens when I've broken mine (56 chevy with a 9 inch, no torque arm or anything connected to the trans but the driveshaft) Is the pinion support breaks off, and in one instance it has shoved the driveshaft forward which busted the tailshaft off the trans and ruined some internal parts. Very expensive repair. I had this happen to a buddies 4th gen with a 10 bolt as well but that was an odd instance I think. Other times I broke it does as you are thinking,,, simply just drops the pinion out of the case and pulls the driveshaft out of the trans, and generally ruining the driveshaft is the only other major foul up.

    I was running (at that time mid to late 80's) stock type ford 3rd members, even the "N" cases when I found them because back then things were cheap. Since they are costly and hard to find nowadays, I now run a Strange 3rd member which is cast much thicker, more webbing (and is heavier as a result) but I have yet to scatter that one. I'm sure it's possible though. I'm always a bit skeptical of those pinion supports. I love the design however, easiest rearend to set a gear up. It's that small extra pinion support inside the case where I've seen failures start to begin. As a matter of fact, I setup a new gear in my neighbors 67 stang last year and when I took it apart (it was working perfectly at the time), that little support area was cracking and actually fell into 3 small pieces when I disassembled it. So we went with a new Strange 3rd member. If I had one apart I'd throw up a picture of what I'm talking about.
    If you happen to come across a picture, please post it. I'd like to see what you're referring to. Thanks FBJ.

  16. #36
    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    If your 3rd bearing has a issue and you don't catch it, your pinion will break off and wreck the center section making it junk and take out the shaft and trans unless you are launching it really easy when it happens otherwise this happens.....................






    NO matter what you do to a Dana or 12 blt that NEVER ever happens. . .

    .

  17. #37
    Member Supershafts's Avatar
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    Yes the 3rd bearing everyone thinks is there for added support, well if you remove that you can break a 9" with a 90hp 4cly, when that 3rd bearing has a issue the videos above are what happens, and also from having the pinion so low on the gear so it has more contact area it also adds more leverage to it and really wants to shoot the pinion off.

  18. #38
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
    Yes the 3rd bearing everyone thinks is there for added support, well if you remove that you can break a 9" with a 90hp 4cly, when that 3rd bearing has a issue the videos above are what happens, and also from having the pinion so low on the gear so it has more contact area it also adds more leverage to it and really wants to shoot the pinion off.
    Yep, the pinion being low to the ring gear centerline is why these things soak up HP. That 3rd bearing you speak of, that's where my issues have been. I've pulled the pumpkin before, while it's still all there in once piece, only to pull the pinion out and have the case fall apart where that 3rd bearing resides (I was lucky once to find out while it was on the bench). For some reason I've had them crack there (those 5,000 rpm clutch dumps are brutal ), and generally since I'm not pulling the center section out all the time, that cracking of the support turns into a real mess on the starting line.
    I've only had that issue with stock Ford 3rd members, just doesn't seem to be very beefy in that area and eventually it fails. The Strange 3rd members however I haven't had a problem with (knock on wood).
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 04-04-2012 at 01:04 PM.

  19. #39
    O U 8 1 2 Spaz's Avatar
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    1999 trans am

    i'm a bit different from most... i have a 8.8" rear...

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaz View Post
    i'm a bit different from most... i have a 8.8" rear...
    Yes Spaz, we all know you do Buns of Steel........


    I have seen this conversion becoming more popular. It does require a bit of fabricating, but seems to be a stout rear in it's own right.

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